So I went over to TitusOne, which I view as the most reliable, least strident site in the “conservative blogosphere,” to learn what’s happening in Fort Worth. Kendall Harmon is carrying many, many news reports from the ACNA meet-up. It had been many weeks (maybe even a couple of months) since I’d visited his site.
And I was shocked by what I observed. His postings (especially about Big Events like this one purportedly is) used to get dozens and dozens of comments. But go look. His many ACNA-related posts are only getting a handful comments. Reports like these used to get dozens of comments. That is weird! What the heck is going on? T19 is still getting hits; it’s just not getting much discussion. How come?
I have a hunch that the True Believers have moved over to StandFirm because they’re weary of TitusOneNine’s fairly constrained links and excerpts. Maybe they want the screaming free-for-all that StandFirm feeds them in its posts and allows in its comments. But even over at SFiF, the posts don’t seem to be getting the volume of comments that they used to.
1. Fr. Dale wrote:
I wonder if there’s a parallel here to this week’s formation of the ACNA. The bishops and priests who’ve made their reputations by excoriating the Episcopal Church finally got what they wanted: a “pure” “Anglican” church.
Most of the clergy I know have been publicly silent about TEC. TEC is making it’s reputation by going beyond “excoriating” to public heresy and litigation. Having ACNA means moving on.
June 26, 8:50 am | [comment link]
2. David Hein wrote:
“These few – this solid core of conservatives (like Fathers Tony Clavier & Dan Martins) – are perhaps still willing to listen and engage in dialogue.”
By “engage in dialogue” I think she means “talk.”
But my question would be “talk about what?” The weather is always a good topic.
“Mind you, my look-see at these sites isn’t scientific.”
Thanks for that heads-up.
“But at the sites I visit and love, the number of comments seems to be down. What’s going on?”
Well, my impession, just based on my look-see, mind you, is that, as a general rule, when the ball game is over, people usually—my data aren’t scientific, mind you—get up from their seats and leave the stadium.
June 26, 8:58 am | [comment link]
3. ACNApriest wrote:
I have noticed the same thing….I do not agree with her theology, but the dynamics of blogs are changing. I think there used to be a time when people had hope for various meeting to produce a document that would change things. Eventually people figured out that the only clarity you will get is the one you create. Some decided that meant leaving TEC and the historic instruments of communion. For others they articulated a stance that does not include any near term hope for the reform of TEC. Instead they focused on the wider communion or faithful witness. I do not completely understand what that side is talking about but it is there. This means that there is very little drama left or very much to discuss. the only surprise at the ACNA meeting would be a failure to pass the constitution or some moderate province declaring communion with them. Neither happened. Could anything surprise you out of GC 2009?
June 26, 9:03 am | [comment link]
4. Br. Michael wrote:
Well ACNA is going to do what it is going to do and TEC is going to do what it is going to do.
The revisionists run TEC and GC 2009. The orthodox are gone and the remaining handful have no influence whatsoever. Why should we waste your time discussing what has now become irrelevant? 1 and 2 are right. Oh we might watch GC with disinterested couriosity, but, as I said, it’s going to do what it is going to do and it’s a revisionist show.
June 26, 9:06 am | [comment link]
5. Katherine wrote:
Three years ago people at T19 and SFiF followed GC2006 reports avidly. Now, even those who are still in ECUSA, the diocese of South Carolina, for instance, have declared those battles lost and moved on to trying to do the best they can where they are. People don’t care any more, because it’s no use.
June 26, 9:14 am | [comment link]
6. Words Matter wrote:
With due respect, you folks won’t be “disinterested” anytime soon, if ever. I became Catholic 23 years last month and yet I hang around Anglican blogs because, frankly, it’s something in your blood. As they might say: you can take the boy out of the Episcopal Church…
Now, I do try to restrain my comments (at this site anything) on matters Episcopalian/Anglican. However, I have also noted both the decrease in number of comments and the level of anger/exasperation/sarcasm which weren’t notices (or tolerated by the elves) 5-6 years ago. To my eyes, the anger, though justified, is a symptom of pain, a stage of grief. While I’m glad many of you found safe haven in the ACNA, when the relief abates, I think you will still have grief. At least I hope you do: the Episcopal Church was something to love and cherish. Her loss diminishes Anglicanism, and thus, all of Christendom.
June 26, 9:21 am | [comment link]
7. Choir Stall wrote:
For MY part I sense that most people know that the revisionists will have a field day at GC ‘09. They will strut their stuff and spread the news that TEC is advancing in great strides towards equality. That by itself is enough reason to gag, but let’s face the facts: TEC is dead on the table. The energy being wasted to “live into” the various agendas of the day just doesn’t warrant much response from those who have moved on.
June 26, 9:25 am | [comment link]
SO: Revisionists…have a great time in Anaheim. Declare victory. Then try to sell it in the pews.
Ah, yes…the downside.
8. MarkP wrote:
“Now, even those who are still in ECUSA, the diocese of South Carolina, for instance, have declared those battles lost….”
Someday, someone will do some analysis on why this is. No one I know really claims the process was unfair, in the sense that conservatives were prohibited from winning parish elections for diocesan representative or from there to be GC delegates. So why couldn’t the conservatives, who always claim they really represent the “people in the pews” positions, get enough of their own elected to see their positions prevail?
One reason, I suppose, is that the conservative position never lost as soundly as the far right claimed. You’d think, from listening to the rhetoric, that GC must have started the very long process to revamp the BCP with gender-neutral language or with same sex blessings, for example. But no, moves to start that process have always been turned down. In fact, it’s hard to find much that GC has actually *done* except giving consent to +VGR. It’s been pretty moderate, actually, if you just look at the result. But the hard-right needed to convince everybody that GC was run by crazy-eyed liberals.
I often think of my grandmother. She was from the traditional episcopal donor class, a fairly wealthy, Republican Connecticut grand dame. She would have had no truck with gay bishops. She’d have been on the conservative team, except that she would have taken one look at, say, David Moyer in PA refusing to let his Bishop do a visitation for fear of impurity in the pulpit and she would have said, “What a prima donna.” She might, for all I know, have left TEC, but the idea that the money she had given should somehow still be hers to take with her would have seemed to her preposterous. And to anyone who moaned too loudly about the direction of the church, she would have said what she said to me in the political sphere—“if you don’t like it, you and your friends should go get yourself elected and change it.” For some reason, I don’t think that was ever part of the conservative strategy.
June 26, 9:36 am | [comment link]
9. Sarah1 wrote:
Maybe everybody will be quiet now. And sit down. And maybe send in that pledge.
It’s all over. Nobody cares any more. We’re all weary of the battle.
Nobody’s reading blogs any more. Or if they are, they aren’t commenting.
Reconciliation has finally come.
We’re all just trying to listen. Really really hear the revisionists. Dialogue together in a more quiet and affirming and accepting tone.
The strife is o’er. All of us are just interested in getting on with The Mission and Ministry of the Church.
It’s wonderful to have so much unity and peace now.
We always knew it would die down. Sure, it took five years and 4 months longer than we had expected . . . but at least it’s here now guys!!!! What a relief!!
Now we can start growing, healing, and reconciling. Thriving in fact.
Dare I ask this missional question?
“Imagine the year as 2019, and the Episcopal Church is even more vital and thriving than it is today.”
; > )
A Chastened, Reconciling, Gentle, Matriarchal, Affirming, Kindly, Excited and Thrilled, Dolphin-Like Episcopalian
June 26, 9:38 am | [comment link]
10. RomeAnglican wrote:
Many of us (by the hundreds) were using our Anglican minutes this week watching AnglicanTV’s excellent coverage of the ACNA assembly, which probably accounts for the fewer stories and comments this week. And no small number of our regulars were actually there in Texas. Also some of the main subjects of discussion—the apostasy of TEC, whether or not there should be and ACNA, whether TEC can be salvaged, etc.—are now pretty much settled. I think when the “conservatives” follow Bishop Lawrence’s lead and quit wasting their time, the liberals will find they have lost not only money and people, but the only thing they had to define themselves by. That’s because TEC is entirely an organization that defines itself by how it is better than others and not like X or Y or Z, all of whom are backward fundamentalists. In getting their way, they will find they now have no one to blame but themselves when it all falls apart. And they will then turn on each other, because there are no reasserters remaining to blame.
June 26, 9:39 am | [comment link]
11. Sarah1 wrote:
RE: “It’s been pretty moderate, actually, if you just look at the result. But the hard-right needed to convince everybody that GC was run by crazy-eyed liberals.”
Yeh—declaring that parts of the Bible are anti-semitic, signing up the entire church to be a member of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, and the effusions of PB Jefferts Schori about her gospel are completely mainstream and moderate.
What’s not to like?
June 26, 9:42 am | [comment link]
12. Widening Gyre wrote:
Perhaps we should start…
June 26, 9:49 am | [comment link]
13. Widening Gyre wrote:
splitting up our posts so that…
June 26, 9:49 am | [comment link]
14. Widening Gyre wrote:
we increase the number of comments for Lisa.
June 26, 9:50 am | [comment link]
15. Creighton+ wrote:
Yes, I too have noticed the reduction in comments over the past year or so. I believe there are a number of reasons. First, there is Kendall’s strict call to Christian civility monitored by the faithful elves. Sadly, it is necessary but I believe it has indeed resulted in some going to Stand Firm where they feel the restraints exist but are less stringent.
Second, Kendall and SC are in a different place as Bishop Lawrence’s letter to his clergy indicates. Whether you agree or not, they will invest their energies in ways they see are more effective in Christ’s mission than in the political infighting of the EC.
Given up? No, I do not believe so. There are ways of fighting and ways of fighting. Some fighting is more subtle than others.
And yes, the blogosphere is evolving and who can say where that will lead.
Needless to say, Kendall and the Diocese of SC have been and are a wonderful witness to Christ and His Gospel.
June 26, 9:57 am | [comment link]
16. Br. Michael wrote:
MarkP, all I can say is enjoy! Have a great convention. Oh and the BCP you might as well leave it alone while ignoring it. That way you can claim that officially TEC is orthodox. Anyway, GC is almost here so enjoy and savor your win.
June 26, 9:58 am | [comment link]
17. BrianInDioSpfd wrote:
Another possible reason for declining comments:
June 26, 10:06 am | [comment link]
I have found that for my spiritual health, I have to limit the amount of time I spend on the blogs. Now I subscribe to a few on my Google Reader. I don’t even look at the comments unless something really strikes me.
I am where the Lord put me—still in TEC—and finding that I need to focus on the spiritual care for the people of my parish.
I’m really thrilled that the ACNA is off and running. Many of my friends are there, but I have received no permission from the Lord to join them. Someday I might.
In the meantime, I find the Lord challenging me to really love people that I violently disagree with.
In the end of all the TEC/ACNA stuff, Jesus still wins. I have to rest in that.
18. Jeffersonian wrote:
I think it’s just that everything has gone as expected at ACNA and there’s little to comment on. Most of us are waiting for the play-by-play from the Lunacy Olympics, aka GC2009.
June 26, 10:09 am | [comment link]
19. chips wrote:
I think the comments have declined largely because actions were being taken as in once the shooting starts the conversation dies down. +Lawerence was consecrated; ++KJS held the line (sort of) on BO33; the Anglican district of Virginia was formed; San Joachim, Ft Worth, Quincy and Pittsburg seceded; Southwest Florida splintered much like Northern Florida had earlier; several large conservative parishes left various dioceses; Lambeth occurred; GAFCON occured; the Anglican Network dioceses left, splintered, or chose to stay in TEC; Common Cause has become the ACNA. Many of the major what if’s have occured.
June 26, 10:31 am | [comment link]
20. TWilson wrote:
I think it makes sense that T19 and SF are differentiated. SF is more of a truly Anglo-focused blog, ie, most content is what is going on in the AC. T19 is broader, and what keeps me coming back is the sharp eye Kendall has for interesting articles, Anglican or not. So I go directly to SF if I need a fix on the latest insanity, but I follow T19 via Google reader to get the benefit of Kendall’s content selection on a daily basis.
June 26, 10:35 am | [comment link]
21. chips wrote:
Now comes the next phase. 1) What will the loony left do at GC2009; 2) how many more parishes and perhaps another diocese will depart because of either a) actions of GC2009 and/or b) they now have a viable alternative to go to; 3) How many other Anglican offshoots ie continuing churches/APA (either parishes or en masse)will join ACNA over the next couple of years 4) how successful will the ACNA be at church planting (there are likely many disgruntled TEC members in moderate parishes that could form the core of a new parish); 5) how many more dioceses will form inside the ACNA as the map comes more cleary into focus 6) how long will it take if ever for the various components to fully merge inside ACNA.
June 26, 10:41 am | [comment link]
These are all governing issues which do not get as many comments on these cites as the latest outrage de jour, or the theological battles (largely intramural) that have been fought out on the two sites.
22. tjmcmahon wrote:
I would note for Ms. Fox that between SF and T19 there must have been over 1000 comments on the recent election in N. Michigan. (OK, so my 250 comments may have skewed the results on that one, LOL). I was surprised that the ACC meeting did not draw even more comment than it did, but then, it went exactly as most of us thought it would- so what was there to say?
June 26, 10:44 am | [comment link]
I suspect it has to do with which threads you read.
It also has to do with the fact that so much of the news of late has to do with the GOOD things happening in the Church, like the formation of the ACNA. Also with the fact that for the last several days, instead of blogging, we have been watching these events unfold on Anglican TV, or following live blogs.
But what I think it comes down to is that most of us do not follow the day to day of TEC. In the last couple days, churches in Connecticut and Massachusetts have announced they are closing- well, that sort of thing is sad, but hardly “news” anymore- it is happening all over.
I am sure that we will all have our share of comments on what happens, or doesn’t, at GC. But even there, I think we are already resigned to the fact that no matter what we say, TEC is going to continue down the path that it is on. Those of us who they castigate as conservatives will continue to do our best to preach the Gospel, in TEC or out of it, and pray that they will hear the Word. But I think most of us have given up thinking we can talk them to their senses on the blogs.
23. Undergroundpewster wrote:
Actually, I think the blogosphere has more conservative voices now than it is possible for any commenter to keep up with.
In addiition, T19 posts a large number of posts which are self explanatory (at least to veteran readers) and appear to need no further comment. Thoughtful comments are still appreciated and needed for the underinformed.
June 26, 10:45 am | [comment link]
24. Martial Artist wrote:
With all due respect, and wishing neither to be nor to seem to be argumentative, your comment about some people
leaving TEC and the historic instruments of communion
should probably read “…historic Anglican instruments….” There were some of us (myself included) who left TEC for a non-Anglican instrument of communion, namely that of the successor of Peter.
Pax et bonum,
June 26, 10:54 am | [comment link]
25. Loren+ wrote:
Undergroundpewster #23 Thank you for your insight: yes many of the posts are self explanatory and do not need further comment. It would be interesting if the elves could comment on trend about the number of hits (I assume they have a hitcounter for this site). I know that I comment less, but continue to visit frequently.
There’s another possible reason for the decrease in comments: since the conversation is changing, some of us are trying to learn the new “vocabulary”. For example, Bp Lawrence in yesterday’s post admitted that the reaffirmers have “lost the day” at least politically. For those of us staying in TEC, how do we talk about losing? What does it mean to shift our attention away from politics to doing mission without giving up or giving in? These conversations will need new language and when we are ready to explore such (likely not until after GC09), the new round of conversations will help each of us move forward—even as the conversation over the last six years has helped us to reflect on God’s calling on each of us thus far.
BTW, I also suspect the Covenant will become a major conversation piece late in the year: Abp Chew sent an official representative to ACNA and has already announced full communion with ACNA. He certainly is indicating that he will not be in favor of weakening the Covenant Section 4. By year’s end, it thus appears right now that ACNA will have already endorsed all four sections while TEC will have done everything possible to even mention it at GC. Hmmn.
Yes, we still need T19 and other good blogs.
June 26, 11:07 am | [comment link]
27. Greg Griffith wrote:
On Monday, SF got 288 comments on items posted that day alone. That’s in addition to the 200+ other comments we got that same day, on previously-posted articles.
~500 comments in a single day, at the beginning of a slow news week, in the dead of summer when a lot of people are at the beach.
Yeah, we may as well fold up the tent and go home. Thanks for exposing our irrelevance, Lisa.
June 26, 11:35 am | [comment link]
28. Jill Woodliff wrote:
Earlier in the week, I received an image in a dream. It was a Celtic cross carved of stone. The head and right arm pieces were missing.
June 26, 11:48 am | [comment link]
The symbolism is self-evident.
29. First Family Virginian wrote:
I’ve certainly noticed fewer posts. Perhaps the thrill is gone.
June 26, 11:51 am | [comment link]
30. First Family Virginian wrote:
The thrill of posting, that is.
June 26, 11:52 am | [comment link]
31. Sarah1 wrote:
Rats, rats, rats, rats.
Jackie, Greg . . . stay on message, please.
Here—lemme try again.
Yes. It is all so sad.
Everybody is quiet now. Reconciled and peaceful. The blogs are silent once again, as they were in those golden years prior to 2003.
Pledges are going up, dialogue increasing, sharing and affirming and sharing and listening and affirming and hearing feelings is going up, along with the throngs entering our churches, sharing and hearing our feelings.
Our unity is more important than that which divides us. Schism is worse than heresy.
We’re all just trying to listen. Really really hear the revisionists and feel the pain and share the vision. I cannot speak for my blogging compadres, but I personally have embraced Indaba as my word of the year.
I think the important thing is not whether we agree on trivial matters that the divisive right fringe keeps bringing up—matters that are, essentially, adiaphora, like Jesus, resurrection, druids, lawsuits, sex, sin, atonement, Buddhist bishop-elects, Bishop brother cover-ups, sharing Eucharist with Hindus and Muslims, and the incarnation—but rather that we focus on the broader, overarching Mission and Ministry of the Church.
I think that now that all the division has ended and commenting and interest in the Internets has subsided—the tiny rebel minority that disagreed with us has all left and therefore we are now unified as we always said were were anyway—the real inspiring vision before us is this question:
“Imagine the year as 2019, and the Episcopal Church is even more vital and thriving than it is today.”
That is what I cling to—that vision of an Episcopal Church that is even more vital and thriving [if we can imagine it] than it is today.
June 26, 11:55 am | [comment link]
32. Nasty, Brutish & Short wrote:
She’s flat out wrong about Stand Firm, the comments fly fast and furious over they. As for Titusonenine, it has been obvious to me for some time that Kendall has deliberately chosen to step back from the fray. It’s not a withdrawal from the debate, per se. But I get the impression he views this blog as less agenda-driven and more of a general interest conservative Anglican blog than it used to be.
Plus, the commenting rules here are more strict. I personally do not care for this (no offense Kendall) because I think there needs to be wide room for humor, illustrating absurdity by being absurd, and by pointing out the other side’s faults with terse, aggressive language.
So Kendall’s rules have something of a chilling effect on the comments, at least on me, anyway. I think that is by design. It’s his blog, he can do what he wants.
Also: If you want to see subdued in comparison to the way it used to be, its Lisa Fox’s own blog that leaps to my mind. Can I say that?
June 26, 11:56 am | [comment link]
33. Milton wrote:
(cross-posted from Lisa Fox’s My Manner of Life)
Catherine S. says it well in her comment. Hasn’t it all been said on both sides? Haven’t both sides stated their talking points clearly and repeatedly? There really is such a thing as irreconcilable differences.
If you can wrap your heads around this analogy, imagine that you are a member of PETA. Representatives of poultry and egg producers who raise their chickens in small cages, greyhound breeders, owners of puppy mills attempt to join. When they are told that their activities violate the founding and defining principles of PETA, they object that you are bigoted and that they will join anyway. Over time, patiently, they join and talk the talk and play the act while subtly changing the bylaws and redefining ethical treatment of animals to include factory farming, disposing of racing dogs past their prime, and churning out puppies in overcrowded, disease-ridden kennels, many of which will be destroyed. They eventually become the majority membership and block membership applications of people who object to their practices and want to work to change for the better the treatment of animals. Would you stay for long in such a radically different PETA than the one you joined? Would continue to “dialogue” with those who only believe they have been “listened” to when they get their way and everyone agrees with them? No doubt you will say this is exactly how conservatives (reasserters) have treated liberals (reappraisers), but this is exactly the view from over here in the conservative camp of what reappraisers have done to TEC, ACoC, and, indeed, most of the western hemisphere Anglican churches with the exception of most of South America.
The comments have died down for the same reason as people leave the courtroom and stop talking after a divorce becomes final. You have won! Celebrate it, rejoice in it! You have caused most of those you call bigots, homophobes, Neanderthals, Biblioidolaters, fundamentalists, primitives, knuckle-draggers, redneck wife-beaters, etc. to leave as you said they should. Charlie Brown has at last walked away from yet another offer of Lucy’s to kick the football.
As for what the few “articulate conservative voices” left in the Episcopal Church are saying these days, read +Mark Lawrence’s (Bishop of SC) letter to the clergy of the diocese and the comments where it was posted on T19 and SFIF. Links are below:
DioSC website original letter - http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.php/t19/article/23548/
T19 - http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.php/t19/article/23548/
SFIF - http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/23549/
Remember how +Lawrence’s consents were nearly successfully blocked on a technicality that was never brought before in consents to many a liberal bishop. Kendall Harmon is not even going to GC09 as a delegate this year, seeing no further point in it after witnessing GC06 and the further deterioration since. Talk amongst yourselves!
June 26, 12:02 pm | [comment link]
34. The_Elves wrote:
The daily comments on T19 can be seen from adding up the days posts from the recent comments page. It is hard to be definitive on trends but certainly there were difficulties when the old blog site kept falling over and it has taken time to recover.
As for the comments policy, in common with other blogs, we have a policy that comments should remain on topic, not be ad hominem or abusive and be expressed temperately and in a Christian manner. Further a dim view is taken of people whose aim is to decry Anglicanism [this is after all an Anglican blog although all are welcome] and/or encourage people to leave one church and join another.
Canon Harmon works very very hard to bring information and challenging and interesting posts to his blog. Comments are welcomed but the blog exists for all its readers including those who are turned off by abusive or venting comments or who find them upsetting or spiritually caustic. The problem is that one or two strongly expressed comments can turn quickly into a thread and a very negative experience for commenters and readers alike and this may not be helpful or aid understanding.
It is a balance, but the line taken here is that we do not like losing commenters but fairness extends not only to commenters but others who read the blog. For that reason comments may be edited or deleted after posting; if the warnings are not taken individual commenters may have their comments moderated before posting. On other blogs comments may not even be posted without approval or even commenters banned having run loose for a period, something we really do not like to do.
We do not always get it right but do try quite hard to ensure that this is an informative, entertaining and helpful blog. Humor is always appreciated.
June 26, 12:33 pm | [comment link]
35. Publius wrote:
“Conversation” (measured as blog comments) is different now; I am not sure that there are fewer comments. As Milton (#33) says, there is little point “debating” matters in General Convention because the revisionists have undisputed control of that body. Orthodox resolutions have zero chance of passage, and the leadership will use procedure to prevent mere discussion that they dislike. As many people have noted, there is nothing new to say to TEC’s leaders. I wish that TEC’s leaders would be honest enough to acknowledge that they don’t want to hear what the orthodox have to say any longer. TEC’s leaders will use their power to prevent orthodox people from even stating their objections to TEC’s continuing enormities. Lisa’s idea that the orthodox will be treated politely by TEC’s leadership is ludicrous.
Instead, the orthodox resistance has (1) moved to ACNA, (2) abandoned Anglicanism altogether for Rome, Orthodoxy, Calvin, seeker churches, etc., or (3) resorted to other means of resisting within TEC. Sarah Hey’s multiple posts over the last year elaborate the “stategery” of those following path (3). As I understand that strategy, path (3) does not so much require fruitless attempts to persuade TEC’s leaders that thay are wrong, but instead to work around them to raise up new leaders in TEC, one vestry at a time.
June 26, 12:41 pm | [comment link]
37. BabyBlue wrote:
Also, http://BabyBlueOnline.org is also hooked in to both my Twitter account and Facebook account (as well as connections in Second Life), and so I get comments in at least three other places including “the cafe,” and then comments at YouTube as well. Others on Facebook and Twitter pick up postings as well. What appears to be happening is the network is widening and how we communicate with one another is shifting.
June 26, 12:50 pm | [comment link]
38. libraryjim wrote:
I think the elves hit on one very valid point:
The change-over to a new server. T1;9 was down for quite some time (in blogging chronology), some people never made the transition to the new site, some just went to other sites while it was down, and didn’t come back, and others came back, but perhaps out of the habit of making daily comments.
I myself, tend to spend a few days away, and then come back and respond to many different threads for a few days, then neglect the site again.
I think this could be a reason for the lessening of posts. Plus it’s summer. Vacation time!!!
June 26, 1:40 pm | [comment link]
39. flaanglican wrote:
I thought your video was fantastic by the way. That prelude just blew me away! Wouldn’t be surprised if someone from each individual parish forwarded it to their church members to point out when their priest processed in. (I did). It’s also one of the featured videos in the playlist embedded at http://www.acnaassembly.org.
Another obvious possibility that no one has yet brought up—it’s summer and people are on vacation, probably deciding to be away from the computer. (I’m not one of them, obviously—yet!)
June 26, 1:44 pm | [comment link]
40. Churchman wrote:
There is still a worthwhile question here: is there a separate mission or audience for T19 apart from what already happens on Standfirm? Couldn’t labor and time and resources be conserved by having just one or the other?
June 26, 1:46 pm | [comment link]
41. flaanglican wrote:
Wouldn’t you know that libraryjim just negated my point about no one has yet brought up summer vacation in the post sent just prior to mine!
June 26, 1:49 pm | [comment link]
42. nwlayman wrote:
Lisa doesn’t realize that “breakaway” Anglicans simply have nothing in common (except a name for a prayerbook) with ECUSA any longer. It’s like expecting the new Anglican group to be closely following the Mormon or Moonie conventions. It’s a ** Diffierent Religion** and Lisa doesn’t get it. I’m sure the fact that the Orthodox Church in America has decided to no longer even bother having occasional talks with ECUSA doesn’t penetrate either. All I’ve heard from Orthodox clergy about that issue is that it’s about 30 years overdue. There’s simply nothing to talk about with ECUSA, Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, or MTV for that matter.
June 26, 2:00 pm | [comment link]
43. Bill C wrote:
I read t19 and SF every day. I do comment less than I used to but it is not for a lack of interest rather than for the following and other reasons such as: health, business, Facebook (which is a wonderful tool for finding old friends - all the way back from graduate school, college and waaaaaaay back to kindergarden), more time spent other Christian blogs and, yes, appreciating a rest from the time I spent on blogs.
These two blogs are still outstanding examples of blogs with much serious discussion. Perhaps there are more ‘sarcastic’ posts on SF which gives a lot of leeway, than for the type of control here on t-19, but together they ellicit far more thoughtful, and outstanding discussion than I have found on any revisionist blog I have visited. I also read far more widely the great sites in other parts of the world.
There is far, far more anti-reasserter (as a ‘bottom feeder’) content on the revisionist blogs.
I subscribe to the HoB/D listserv and look at it most days (I do automatically delete comments made by cynical and cruel revisionist such as Ann Fountaine (sp ?), Mike Russell, and Tom (? - forgot his last name). I have emailed a couple of the orthodox contributors on the listserv now and then. I was told that there used to be many more orthodox folk on the H0B/D site (it seems that there are only three left) and that is because these who quit felt that most of it was not edifying and had too much critical content - or little useful content.
June 26, 2:06 pm | [comment link]
44. Bill C wrote:
Anyway, Lisa’s comment is a useful one for consideration, except for the reasons she suggests to account for any decrease in numbers of commenters - if, indeed, there are fewer comments.
June 26, 2:13 pm | [comment link]
45. Bill C wrote:
The two above comments of mine express the views of an:
‘unchastened’, vindictive, angry, patriarchal, dismissive, unkind, bored and rock fishlike Anglican.
June 26, 2:19 pm | [comment link]
46. Chris Taylor wrote:
Although this particular thread is not a good example of what Lisa Fox is talking about, I think she’s right that things have begun to settle down a bit. My own attention is turning increasingly to ACNA and the excitement of its hopeful new mission. I was glued to all things ACNA this week and it was a great relief! The energy was positive, and I haven’t felt so hopeful about Anglicanism for a LONG TIME. I love this new feeling, and as my interest in ACNA grows my concern with TEC (and all the grief that goes with it) declines. I’ll probably tune in to GC next month every once in awhile just to see how crazy it gets, but I don’t feel ANY emotional investment anymore in what happens there.
It’s great to watch and be a part of renewal in North American and global Anglicanism, and I just don’t have the time or psychic energy to waste on TEC anymore. It feels GREAT to be part of a province-in-formation that is recognized by the majority of the world’s Anglicans and, I suspect, soon by the majority of the world’s Christians too, as authentic and orthodox. I suspect the bonds with Anglicans globally will increase exponentially now, and I think that’s very exciting and will be very positive for the new province-in-formation.
For now the historic “instruments of Communion” hold little interest for me. I suspect that with time they’ll catch up to what’s going on globally in Anglican renewal and “recognize” it officially, but until they do, there’s too much building that needs to be done. I hope that an ACNA blog comes along soon, and I’m sure it will. I suspect it will look different from both SF and T19. There will be much less focus on what has been lost than on what needs to be done to build for the future. I look forward to that positive and forward-looking venue to exchange ideas, have debates, and celebrate renewal!
I deeply respect those orthodox who choose to remain in TEC and bear witness, acknowledging that they recognize that battle for orthodoxy has been lost there. However, that’s not a path I could take. I need to be part of an Anglican future that is growing and hopeful, not one that is resigned to death.
June 26, 2:31 pm | [comment link]
47. Bob Maxwell+ wrote:
Lisa, many have already returned to Anglican roots in the ACNA. Any remaining TECers or Continuum members that wish to become part of a Trinitarian, Reformed and Tradutional Anglican Communion once again and are ready to affirm the Covenant and the Jerusalem Declaration, outstretched arms now await to walk with each person. congregation and diocese to Jesus who alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
We’re only a prayer and a phone call away.
June 26, 3:03 pm | [comment link]
. . . still ridin’ for the brand.
48. Loren+ wrote:
Chris #46 I am not resigned to death. l am where I am with two commitments: to engage and promote cross-culture church planting missions and to build up my parish. I am not ready to turn over the parish property to a heterodox priest or have the diocese sell the building to become some kind of art gallery or pub. Right now, we are free as a parish to proclaim the Gospel (attendance and baptisms are up) and to engage in missions (with commitments in no less than five countries). However, I know that TEC is shrinking (God’s discipline in our generation not unlike in Eli’s generation 1Sam3) and that after GC I may experience increasing pressure to change what we are doing. If God says, move on, I will do so. Right now, He is still giving us the opportunity to press on right here.
Your comment might have another assumption in it: namely that ACNA will completely replace TEC. It is possible: it’s hard to imagine that today’s UCC are the heirs of Jonathon Edwards Congregationalists! But it is also possible that a further realignment will eventually take place uniting in some fashion ACNA and the Orthodox of TEC—eg. dioceses that endorse the Windsor Covenant. And, I gotta admit it is fun watching ACNA take shape! But this Reformation is not yet complete (remember it took 75 years for the first great reformation, we are but 40 or 45 years into this one.)
June 26, 3:04 pm | [comment link]
49. tjmcmahon wrote:
On Monday, SF got 288 comments on items posted that day alone. That’s in addition to the 200+ other comments we got that same day, on previously-posted articles.
~500 comments in a single day, at the beginning of a slow news week, in the dead of summer when a lot of people are at the beach.
Yeah, we may as well fold up the tent and go home. Thanks for exposing our irrelevance, Lisa.
Kendall+ and Greg-
June 26, 3:19 pm | [comment link]
I wonder how your membership stack up against the average TEC diocese.
How many dioceses have more members than your blogs?
How many dioceses receive 500 communications from parishioners in a day?
How many hits does Episcopal Life get (especially now that people get hijacked by the One Episcopalian site). How does that compare to SF and T19?
Where will people go for news on what’s actually happening during GC? Are they assuming we will all tune in to Mark Harris’ twitter feed and follow his every thought?
50. Milton wrote:
In fact, it’s hard to find much that GC has actually *done* except giving consent to +VGR. It’s been pretty moderate, actually, if you just look at the result. But the hard-right needed to convince everybody that GC was run by crazy-eyed liberals.
Don’t worry, MarkP. In a couple of weeks the crazy-eyed liberals and what they *did* at GC09 will convince everyone that *Disneyland was the perfect place for a *Mickey Mouse church to have its *Goofy convention and take back the true **Anglican tradition from those hard-right hijackers. Even the MSM may come away with that consesus this time.
*Copyright Walt Disney Productions
**Copyright in perpetum The Episcopal Organization
June 26, 3:44 pm | [comment link]
51. Alice Linsley wrote:
Perhaps those who read blogs have settled on their favorites. That’s true for me. (I never read Stand Firm anymore, BTW.) Also, since everything about TEC’s heretical and apostate trajectory has already been said at conservative blogs, many feel less compelled to comment on every entry. Add the fact that there are now many conservative blogs that offer excellent reading. Here are 2 that Revisionists probably never visit:
June 26, 4:20 pm | [comment link]
52. MarkP wrote:
Milton said, “Don’t worry, MarkP. In a couple of weeks the crazy-eyed liberals” and so on.
I don’t think it’s going to be much fun for either of us, while you guys try to hold together the lay-presiders and the biretta wearers. But regret was at the heart of my post—I’m sorry the professional culture warriors convinced the conservatives to leave our church. We needed each other.
June 26, 4:42 pm | [comment link]
53. Dale Rye wrote:
Those of us who tried to insert ideas into the discussion on many of the Anglican/Episcopal blogs that didn’t fit in with their prevailing “political correctness,” whether reassesser or reasserter, found ourselves being shouted down as “reactionary” or “revisionist” or often both at once. I basically gave up on T19 after having a post deleted by our ever-so-polite Elves who accused me of equating the Pope with Osama Bin Ladin. It had become clear that this blog had joined most of the others on both sides of the aisle as favoring monologue over dialogue. Too many similar things had happened to me and other people who still considered moderation a virtue here and elsewhere in our increasingly polarized blogiverse.
I suspect that many of the others who no longer post much are, like me, simply tired. We are too battered to keep on fighting, even for things that we felt had ultimate value, when there was no reasonable prospect of being heard, much less heeded. It has been a lot easier to simply retreat into our local communities and focus on work there.
June 26, 5:21 pm | [comment link]
54. Susan Russell wrote:
But Lisa’s questions sure bumped up the comment quotient for the day!
June 26, 5:46 pm | [comment link]
55. Milton wrote:
MarkP, no professional anything convinced me a year ago to leave our congregation with 2 faithful reasserting priests in DioTN. Sadly, the fault lines in TEC not only divide dioceses and congregations, but sometimes families as well. Issues in my family coming to a head showed me that our congregation was no longer a safe home for me spiritually or emotionally. Perhaps that will change, with the grace and power that come only from the shed blood of the risen Lord Jesus Christ. Meanwhile, I can only stand, pray and wait and attend a Nazarene church whose pastor’s unmatched teaching has fed and sustained me on the radio and internet for a decade and whose congregation lives out a fervent love for and personal relationship with and lifting up in worship of Jesus, and who have taken me under their wing and into their hearts and welcomed me in to their vibrant Sunday school classes.
But if that glorious miracle should happen, in a few years will there still be a recognizably Christian church proclaiming the Gospel of salvation from sin and reconciliation with God the Father through Jesus Christ alone? Will my 2 daughters have to acolyte at same-sex “marriages”? Will they be taught that Jesus is, at most, “our way” rather than “the way”. Will our priests be removed as not mentally competent to minister at the whim of diocesan or national TEC officials and have to clear their name with evaluations done at their own expense that said officials can dismiss out-of-hand as not meeting their standards? The proposed revisions to the disciplinary canons would allow just that, making deposition for “abandonment of the communion of the Episcopal Church” look like a jury trial ruled on by blind Justice herself by comparison. Will we, even in this orthodox on its face congregation with its 2 faithful priests trying to rouse their muddled middle of the road congregation from their contented drone of life as undemanding usual, remain oblivious to the coming enforcement of radical liberal rewriting of Scripture, doctrine, theology and liturgy, as well as to the many lost and dying souls on their way to self-chosen eternal banishment from Jesus for lack of our bringing the Gospel message to them for our lack of urgency or even care for their state? Will we ever be confronted with the state of our own souls by a sermon that with its gentle and yet uncompromising words forces us to searing soul-searching and an encounter with the risen Lord Jesus much as Paul had on the Damascus road?
MarkP, I fear for our priests being the target of TEC purges and for the spiritual lives of so many who may be swept to comfortable unknowing radically inclusive destruction, banished from the Jesus of the Gospels who may have to tell them at too late last, “I never knew you.” I do hear the regret in this 2nd comment of yours. We needed each other, but all of us need Jesus more, and only He can transform us and all our relationships to make our need of each other a healthy and healing one rather than an unhealthy and spiritually co-dependent one.
Don’t worry too much about the biretta-wearers and the lay-presiders holding it together. For them, unlike for reappraisers and reasserters, what unites them truly is stronger by far than what divides them. As A. W. Tozer once wrote, “A thousand grand pianos all tuned to the same tuning fork must necessarily also be in tune with each other.”
June 26, 5:50 pm | [comment link]
56. Dale Rye wrote:
As it happens, I wrote my comment above before reading Bishop Lawrence’s letter to the South Carolina clergy. It sounds much the same note, I think… fatigue at fighting repeated unwon and perhaps unwinnable battles, combined with the recognition that energy is best conserved for other efforts that may be more fruitful.
As Mother Teresa wrote, we are not called to be successful, only faithful, but one element of faithfulness is prudence, the Christian cardinal virtue of skillfully choosing the right means to achieve our ultimate goals. Thus, if there is a movement away from vigorous debate on various blogs, it may be driven by the prudent judgment of the former commenters that their energies are best spent elsewhere.
June 26, 6:07 pm | [comment link]
57. Choir Stall wrote:
I’ve started a prelim work on a THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES (aka) THANKS FOR THE KISS OF DEATH website for when TEC finally crumbles. After all at least four-six more dioceses will not be able to stomach a Church led by the likes of the rabid voices of heterodoxy that have been given myriads of passes to ruin this Church. Can they honestly watch Anaheim next month and sit still for more?
June 26, 6:07 pm | [comment link]
I’m imagining a picture/bio/quotable quote gallery of people that we can thank when we lose about another 100,000 members.
Has anybody else started working on such a project? No slander, mind you….just revisionist’s faces in typical yelling posture, smug posture, condescending posture, etc., with their own words….and nobody else’s. A tale told…
58. seitz wrote:
Fatigue is surely a factor. But I also think the commotion over seeing only one way forward (ACNA) died down a good deal, and people now read someone like +SC with a better sense of how complicated a witness is, and how not one size fits all. Sarah has been tireless is pointing this out, and I think over time people understood her viewpoint.
June 26, 6:08 pm | [comment link]
The question that intrigues me is how the true progressives and the more moderate liberals will deal with each other in a shrinking and aging church. The former are committed to a vision of ‘justice’ that is sheer principle (Luther’s ‘law’), and in that frame of reference, there can be no toleration of dissent. Only temporary constraining orders. For according to this vision, justice delayed is justice denied and all areas of TEC will be under scrutiny to bless SS relationships, etc.
Moderate liberals are inclined to want to keep the peace and give everybody space, and this will not jive well with the vision of the true believer progressive.
True-believer progressives like the idea of laissez-faire at the international level (a diverse ‘communion’, autonomy, hands-off) but have no such vision locally, whereas the moderate liberal wants the laissez faire to happen within. I doubt these two groups will get along. Especially as the money spent on litigation increases and the stress around that expands.
We hear lots of talk about being a victim and redressing wrongs, but is anyone in any doubt that one faction in TEC will demand that justice is the Gospel? In that world, it won’t just be conservatives left like +SC fighting for a different vision of the Gospel. I would wager that the moderate liberals will also feel very crowded.
So none of this is easy to predict, God is in His heaven and calls on us to obey and pray, and in this sort of climate, I doubt it is odd to find commentary not on sure footing.
I think a helpful thread might be one that asked how true-believer progressives and their liberal moderate friends will deal with one another as the march for justice hastens.
59. Chris Taylor wrote:
LCF+ (#48), I am sure that you and others will respond faithfully if you ever do hear the Lord calling you and your flock out of TEC. I completely understand your comments about property, it certainly can be very hard. At the same time we all know that we worship a God who may call us to leave all that behind (Mark 10:21). I also trust that you will continue to keep your eyes on the larger picture, however safe and insulated your own parish or even diocese may seem for now. You have been entrusted with the care of something far more valuable than any property could ever be.
In terms of your point about my assumption, I suppose it is true that I am assuming that the orthodox Christian faith will endure far longer than the current ideology of TEC. Perhaps through your witness and those of others who are choosing, for now, to remain within TEC, that body will be called back to the faith. With God all things are possible. In these complex times we must all listen carefully for that still small voice. Many of us believe we have heard it already and it is calling us to another place. May the Lord continue to bless you in your ministry wherever you are called to serve!
June 26, 6:22 pm | [comment link]
60. montanan wrote:
MarkP - I am a moderate conservative. I don’t post on blogs much. I believe there is a real truth in each side needing the other. I doubt I’ve been influenced by the ‘professional culture warriors’ (a term I think very apt, by the way), as I can’t stand to read or hear most of them. I was in a TEC diocese which is not overtly hostile to conservatives, though it had been made quite clear there wasn’t any room for us to grow or to vision a future for ourselves and our children. I could probably have stood up and have had a reasonable shot at being recognized as someone who represented part of the reasserting middle ground. Nevertheless, it was made clear beyond measure - at the diocesan level and nationally - there was/is no place for me or, more importantly, my children in TEC. I still grieve leaving TEC, being a ‘cradle’ member - but the grieving is much less and the joy of being in ACNA - despite it’s many challenges and risks ahead - is wonderful. Would that things would have been allowed to be different.
The point you make in your first entry about reasserters having lost the day/year/decade/half-century by failing to be involved is good. We were lazy. We wanted to listen and provide opportunity to speak out. We wanted to be inclusive of varying points of view. We let compromise occur year after year. In short, we failed to stand for our beliefs in the same way the reappraisers did. It is remarkable how much less opening I perceive for reasserters to speak out than I believe was given to the reappraisers over the past 30 years. No matter now - I think that lesson was learned by those who left, and, if I read +SC correctly, by many who are staying. I concur with Dr. Seitz about where the new battle lines will be in TEC, just as ACNA is at great risk of having its own when the newlywed love wears thin.
But, again, would that it would have been allowed to be different.
June 26, 7:34 pm | [comment link]
61. montanan wrote:
I forgot to mention - Susan Russell hit the nail on the head. Ironic that the post about a lack of posting generated a large number of posts.
I would also add (in response to some of the posts above), for reasserters, SFiF and T19 serve different purposes. SFiF is wonderful in many ways, but the tenor is sometimes a bit off-putting for me. The civility (enforced or not) of T19 often serves people of my ilk better. However, SFiF covers issues differently and it is sometimes helpful to peruse - and even post - there. It puzzles me when people want the two to look alike in terms of tone and content. I am thankful they both exist - and that they are different. FWIW.
June 26, 7:44 pm | [comment link]
62. Br. Michael wrote:
60, It’s more than that. There were rules that prohibited the reappraisers from doing what they did. We relied on the rules and the doctrine. The reappraisers ignored them. They were simply more ruthless than we ever dreamed of being.
June 26, 7:45 pm | [comment link]
63. Alice Linsley wrote:
Montanan, you are right that Stand Firm sometimes puts people off. I find that group’s general unwillingness to entertain more catholic views, especially touching on women’s ordination, just as disturbing as Revisionists’ unwillingness to look at the question.
June 26, 7:57 pm | [comment link]
64. Chris Taylor wrote:
MarkP (#52), I would agree with you that we have all been diminished by the split, but I doubt the consequences will be the same. ACNA will face MANY challenges in the months and years ahead. I have no doubt that there will be setbacks and disappointments, but they won’t come from the challenges you point to: “I don’t think it’s going to be much fun for either of us, while you guys try to hold together the lay-presiders and the biretta wearers.” In fact, I think this tension you point to lies at the heart of classical Anglicanism. Without this sort of tension I’m not sure there’s much to Anglicanism. The capacity of Anglicanism to hold these two visions in dynamic, albeit often painful, tension in post-Reformation Western Christianity (“Reformed AND Catholic) is central to what energizes Anglicanism. What TEC is trying to hold together, however, is far more complicated—Christianity and something else.
June 26, 8:00 pm | [comment link]
65. Fr. Dale wrote:
#52. Mark P.,
I’m sorry the professional culture warriors convinced the conservatives to leave our church. We needed each other.
How about unpacking the term “professional culture warriors” for me? I was unaware that “they” were responsible for my leaving TEC so I would like to know who they are.
June 26, 9:25 pm | [comment link]
66. Bill Cool wrote:
Although I have never been more than an occasional commenter, I do scan/read SF and T19 daily. I may be part of the phenomenon that Lisa Fox sees or imagines she sees.
Beginning principally with the advent of GAFCON and now with the formation of ACNA, I am finding myself moving on to focus more on whatever Great Commission stuff is happening among my fellow parishioners at Truro, within ACNA, and the rest of the Anglican Communion and Christian Church. I do wonder about and pray for those faithful who are still in TEC, but that is no longer my church. We’ve just been blessed by visits of two of our long-term missionary linguists with Wycliffe/SIL and other missionaries on furlough, have seen our rector and several members of our parish depart on a short-mission mission to India, see a large congregation of homeless being fed and worshipping on our campus, and have seen Alpha and marriage seminars continue to grow. We are busy with actual Christian community and actual Christian missionary work, and have faithful bishops leading us who know that they are charged with defending and advancing the historic Apostolic faith. I am amazed at what God is doing among us and other congregations in ACNA and also in faithful non-Anglican congregations of which I am aware. We are too busy doing real stuff to spend a lot of time doing sophomoric jousting about whether we will be able to “hold together the lay-presiders and the biretta wearers”. I still depend on SF and T19 to uncover the Anglican and TEC news that needs uncovering, and I still support SF as a place where this happens. But TEC news is not news about my church, and discussions about heresy is not where I intend to spend my time, so my comments may have diminished.
June 27, 12:22 am | [comment link]
67. Ralph Webb wrote:
Despite exceptions like this post and certain news events, it really does seem like posting has decreased. I think there are several reasons:
*It’s a different time. When people worry about their jobs, other things become less important to them. I don’t think this factor can be underestimated.
*Lambeth 2008 apparently destroyed any remaining expectations that one event would lead to either a cataclysm or a eucatastrophe within Anglicanism. People (including, evidently, the press) realized that the Anglican troubles would continue with people leaving TEC, with different Anglican groups aligning with others, etc., but without any one earth-shattering event.
*For some, it is perhaps a sign of healing that they are less concerned about these issues. For others, apathy or fatigue may be the cause.
June 27, 1:31 am | [comment link]
68. Sarah1 wrote:
RE: “How about unpacking the term “professional culture warriors” for me?”
Hey Dcn Dale—they’re the folks that pointed out the fact that the two competing worldviews in TEC were antithetical and functionally incompatible. Fleshing this out, describing it, pointing it out, and illustrating it reveal that essentially the people in TEC hold disparate faiths, mutually opposing gospels.
It’s deeply irritating to some liberals to have this pointed out.
RE: “I was unaware that “they” were responsible for my leaving TEC so I would like to know who they are.”
Yeh—but he needs to have someone to blame for your and others responses.
June 27, 7:41 am | [comment link]
69. Franz wrote:
Well others have said it before, but I will add my two cents.
Like others, I now post lest because it seems as though the end game (for ECUSA) is being played out. With ACNA up, and Anaheim looming, there does not seem to be a lot to talk about any more. Although I continue to read about what is going on, I no longer fell as engaged.
In fact, like others, I no longer really consider myself an Episcopalian. The turmoil of the past several years, as well as changes in my own parish, have prompted a re-examination of what I believe, and why. Events have shaken my faith, but I can say that, if I come out of all this still a Christian, the version of Christianity promulgated by the ECUSA (at the national level) will not be something worth adhering to. The answer may lie with ACNA, Orthodoxy or Rome, but not with the dioceses under the thumb of 815 and GC.
So although I think I’m still technically “on the books,” I am no longer an active ECUSAian. Therefore, in relation to events in and around ECUSA, I am an interested spectator, but not a participant.
June 27, 8:40 am | [comment link]
70. Milton wrote:
Sarah, its those internets. Do not read those internets. They are scaring the children.
June 27, 10:12 am | [comment link]
71. Charming Billy wrote:
Well, as they say, the opposite of love is apathy, not hatred. Reasserters have become indifferent to what happens to TEC as an institution or have simply moved on.
June 27, 10:14 am | [comment link]
72. robroy wrote:
I try to contribute to T19 because I think it is important.
But I just looked at the Michael Jackson/Farah Fawcett thread and saw the elves deleted one of my comments. I don’t remember what exactly what I said, but I guess I violated the “don’t speak ill of the dead.” I do think that the elves are way to overbearing. I remember I was carrying on what I thought was a pretty interesting but civil dialogue with an “inside strategy” on a very much stale thread. We got spanked for being “off topic” and shut down. It wasn’t really but it wasn’t precisely on topic, but who cares. Nobody but a few people were reading at that point. Makes one lose interest in participating.
This is an example of an elvish dilemma- one slightly off topic comment can start a whole thread going off topic. One encourages another and, if allowed to continue, sometimes the thread needs to be closed.
Sometimes it’s difficult to be an elf and make a judgement call.
June 27, 12:38 pm | [comment link]
73. Sarah1 wrote:
Just the other day, one of the elves removed one of my comments. They claimed it was because I was responding to an off-topic. But let’s face it—the elves have had it in for me from day one.
I myself have nightmares of their red-tipped, gleaming fangs, glowing in the moonlit nights. Slitty cruel eyes. Rejecting slicing claws.
And their edits. Oh my word . . . I could have written a comment along the lines of “It will be interesting to see just how out in la la denial land Bishop Jefferts Schori’s comments will be about the “growth” of the church under her tenure as Presiding Bishop.”
And seconds later one would see a comment like “I look forward to the always interesting comments of our Presiding Bishop [slightly edited].”
One of the best services that StandFirm ever provided we reasserters are the luscious elf recipes that they have developed for when hapless elves wander over out of their domain into what I like to call “Happy Hunting Lands.”
June 27, 4:30 pm | [comment link]
74. Bill Cool wrote:
June 27, 4:57 pm | [comment link]
Promises, promises… SF has long claimed to have award-winning elf recipes, but where is the link to these promised culinary artistic works, where is the offer of a Special Edition of recipes in a gold-embossed leather bound volume? And where can one find good solid advice on elf snares and elf bait? Articles about serious theology are most welcome, but where are the threads about elf safaris? SF needs to increase its relevance to really serious topics that have actual significance.
75. The_Elves wrote:
Poor poor elves. Oh woe is us.
June 27, 5:38 pm | [comment link]
76. badman wrote:
The internet brings people of the same mind together and flatters them by reinforcing their prejudices. But it also allows gatecrashers to engage in discussion with those fiercely opposed, in a way that, face to face, many of us are too polite to attempt.
The initial result is very exciting, and sometimes frightening - an explosion of violent, passionate controversy. But, after a while, the fact that we disagree becomes trite. And the reasons for our disagreement are not, as it turns out, so complex as to bear infinite repetition.
And so, although the disagreements remain, the controversy subsides.
That is a good thing.
June 27, 6:16 pm | [comment link]
77. Pageantmaster [KJS to Coventry] wrote:
And so, although the disagreements remain, the controversy subsides.
That is a good thing.
Perhaps. Sometimes things not faced and dealt with just get more entrenched, and sometimes they blow up.
Which is not a good thing.
June 27, 8:04 pm | [comment link]
78. John Wilkins wrote:
#73 - the elves have had it in for you, Sarah? Are you playing the victim?
Elves, the comments you have removed that I have spoken deserved whatever editing they got.
I admit, I am still confused about the “mutually opposing gospels” thesis you mention. I just don’t see the venn diagram in the same way. Although perhaps you do, actually believe that the earth is flat, that evolution is a myth, and that biblical culture is superior to capitalism.
I personally think there is only one gospel. And you - and me - live it out with God’s grace. As I have said before, Sarah, I have no doubt that you live under God’s grace and I know you are showered with His blessings.
Perhaps you oppose this view. It may oppose your gospel.
As Paul said “Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God…”
Sarah, I wish more people were like you. But Paul himself said, “I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.”
June 27, 11:04 pm | [comment link]
79. Sarah1 wrote:
RE: “I admit, I am still confused about the “mutually opposing gospels” thesis you mention.”
Yawn . . . [hic!] . . . No you’re not.
RE: “Although perhaps you do, actually believe that the earth is flat, that evolution is a myth, and that biblical culture is superior to capitalism.”
RE: “As I have said before, Sarah, I have no doubt that you live under God’s grace and I know you are showered with His blessings. Perhaps you oppose this view.”
I’m indifferent as to your view. We do not share enough in common—values or foundational worldview—for me to have any interest or concern about your opinion.
On a more important note . . .
RE: “Poor poor elves. Oh woe is us.”
Brother brother brother.
Cruel, vicious, sadistic creatures are now putting on the sad face, trying to pretend like they’re fearful or anxious.
These creatures are in my nightmares. I wake up in a cold sweat, clutching my comments to me, holding on for dear life.
I can’t figure out why a gentle, kindly Episcopal priest like Father Harmon would consort with elves at all. But he has been deceived by them, clearly.
It was after dealing with the elves over here that I finally learned the true meaning of PTSD.
I got out of therapy only a year ago—and still my state of mind is quite tenuous.
I’m very fragile.
And just seeing a comment in italics with the notation “ed.” can send me into another panic attack.
June 27, 11:21 pm | [comment link]
80. Bill Cool wrote:
June 27, 11:38 pm | [comment link]
...“can send me into another panic attack” - so you admit to attacking elves and causing them to panic. Don’t you know it is better to use stealth and avoid their panic? Or do I misunderstand your technical terminology?
81. rob k wrote:
No. 64 - As long as Anglicanism continues to embrace, or allow, Reformed theology and practice within its Catholic infrastructure, it will continue to tear at itself.
June 27, 11:41 pm | [comment link]
82. Bill Cool wrote:
 Rob k
June 27, 11:59 pm | [comment link]
You appear to be speculating, unless you have some way of predicting the future - other than simply forecasting based on past difficulties, since current ACNA conditions may be different. I for one am content to let that undergo the Gamaliel test (Acts 5:34).
83. libraryjim wrote:
Do you think we will actually get to 100 posts on a thread that bemoans the fact that posting is down recently?
June 28, 1:13 am | [comment link]
84. rob k wrote:
No,. 82 - ACNA is a marriage of convenience. That’s why. Thx.
June 29, 7:34 pm | [comment link]
85. tjmcmahon wrote:
Actually, my experience has been that the number of posts on either a conservative or liberal blog (whether church related or not) is directly proportional to the number of visitors from the opposing camp who show up trolling. If Lisa wanted to see more posts on SF, all she had to do was log in, toss a few well placed verbal grenades, and await the 150 responses to whatever revisionist foolishness she chose to post.
It does work the other way too. You can have an amusing evening on a revisionist blog from time to time. Of course, now that they virtually all screen comments, and any comment that implies you believe in marriage or Creeds is rejected, it is hard to get a word in edgewise.
June 29, 9:37 pm | [comment link]