” Very gently but firmly the group let me into a secret. It was all very well to have a covenant, but what if the people have different ideas as to what a covenant may mean? What if you were in covenanting with westerners, whose word could not be relied on? Of what use is a covenant then? Look at the state of marriage in the west. Consider the western capacity to use slippery words. What would a covenant be worth?”
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Listen up ECUSA leadership!
These people have ‘got your number.’

And the statement,
“Consider the western capacity to use slippery words.”
seems to be a very nice way of saying “liars.”

“Look at the state of marriage in the west. “

You lot in ACNA (etc) have this problem sorted out, I presume, not be of the west?

“You lot in ACNA (etc) have this problem sorted out, I presume, not be of the west?”

Sorry for the obnoxious tone of this comment—I’d withdraw it if I knew how. But it did seem to me that the previous poster wasn’t giving full weight to the original statement’s indictment of the west as a whole, not just TEC. (And, as I’ve said before, I think a lot of people—including many of the most vocally “orthodox” groups—are inconsistent in explaining away Jesus’ own words on divorce while enforcing the words of others on homosexuality).

”(And, as I’ve said before, I think a lot of people—including many of the most vocally “orthodox” groups—are inconsistent in explaining away Jesus’ own words on divorce while enforcing the words of others on homosexuality).”

I don’t know any Christians who believe we should ask God to bless divorce or otherwise celebrate divorce as intrinsic. But then my worldview has been limited.

Sorry for the obnoxious tone of this comment—I’d withdraw it if I knew how.

You know how to modify the tone of your comments.  You are expressing your frustration.

But it did seem to me that the previous poster wasn’t giving full weight to the original statement’s indictment of the west as a whole, not just TEC.

It is possible that some people in the GS are frustrated with westerners as a whole but the inclusion of Bishop Duncan suggests that we are not written off entirely.  We live in a culture that does not value truth and our GS brothers and sisters are right in asking us to demonstrate that we do value the truth and that we live up to our commitments.

(And, as I’ve said before, I think a lot of people—including many of the most vocally “orthodox” groups—are inconsistent in explaining away Jesus’ own words on divorce while enforcing the words of others on homosexuality).

The church does need to take divorce more seriously but I am not sure what your point is.  The sins of divorce and homosexual acts do have the same status.  Neither sin disqualifies someone from membership in the body of Christ and either sin may make someone ineligible for some leadership positions depending on whether the person has achieved an adequate level of control in that area of their lives.  The “orthodox” groups may still need to resolve appropriate discipline issues but the divide with the TEC is more foundational.  The TEC does not agree with the concept of sin as a whole, the need for repentance and our need for a redeemer.

“I don’t know any Christians who believe we should ask God to bless
divorce or otherwise celebrate divorce as intrinsic.”

Well and good, but “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and whoever marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.”

Divorces may not be blessed but remarriage is. But it’s blessing a homosexual relationship that’s a communion-breaker.

I’d withdraw it if I knew how.

“You know how to modify the tone of your comments.  You are expressing your frustration.”

My point was I don’t know how to remove a comment once it’s posted (though I’ve seen comments marked as “withdrawn” so I assume there’s a way to do it). My apology was for expressing my frustration.

It seems that no matter who reports from the encounter the same things are said. It speaks quite well of the unity that must have been present.

Don

Mark P, many of the Global South provinces have been as shocked at TEC’s willingness to ordain divorced/remarried clergy as they have at its willingness to ordain non-celibate GLBT’s.  Some clergy, you will remember, had some difficulty finding new bishops when they left TEC for precisely this reason.

Have to agree with Mark P on this one (sort of).  Acceptance of remarriage after divorce severely undercuts the credibility of those who oppose gay marriage on Scriptural grounds.  One of the reasons my wife and I left an evangelical Episcopal church to become Catholics is that most evangelicals, both as individuals and as denominations, including the ACNA, permit remarriage after divorce in all circumstances, not simply the narrow exceptions cited by Christ and St. Paul.  The amount of twisting of the plain meaning of Scripture cited by Mark P to arrive at this position, and the “pastorial” reasons given for doing so, appeared to us to be at least on the same order as what liberals do regarding gay marriage.  In the end, regardless of whether it is true or not, American evangelicals justifiably appear, to the wider world, to be quietly approving of a change in traditional Christian teaching to match changes in American culture when it effects them but not so when it doesn’t.

Non-sequiter arguments.  The Church’s silence of divorce and co-hibitation are far from endorsements of such behavior and as such are not justification for acceptance of SSB.  Just as the lack of condemnation of failure to recognize not keeping the Sabbath Day holy.

“are not justification for acceptance of SSB.”

Just want to say that I did not intend this as justification for acceptance of SSB. But I do think that followers of Jesus should be particularly sensitive to places where they are treating insiders (people like us) more leniently than outsiders (not like us). Most of us have more and closer relationships with remarried people than with LGBT people, and it’s natural to want to be generous with people we know (because we know them to be people of good faith).

But Jesus was pretty stern with people who used the law to further marginalize outsiders (Corban, for example, or the treatment of tax collectors). Whenever somebody proclaims that they disassociate themselves from anything TEC does that’s out of line with the plain sense meaning of Scripture (I think the diocese of South Carolina did this last year, for example) I thinks it’s fair to ask, “why here and not there?” And I think you have to recognize that others are asking it even if you’re not.

#9 & 10,

I think the ACNA is trying to face the problem squarely.  It’s true that we have a lot of repenting to do, because even those of us who were theological conservatives (when we were) in TEC now realize that we often took too lax and lenient a stance toward the painful issue of divorce and remarriage.  Too often, we let the world squeeze us into its permissive mold.

FWIW, ++Duncan has publicly declared that he will NEVER approve a 3rd marriage.  Period.  No exceptions.  And the ACNA does restrict the office of bishop to men who’ve never been divorced (among other things, of course). 

That policy kept the former dean of the SE regional convocation of the old ACN, my friend Jim McCaslin+, from being considered when the Anglican churches in northern FL and southern GA recently elected a bishop (Neil Lebhar won).  The fact that Jim has had a strong 2nd marriage (to Ginny) that has lasted over 20 years now didn’t matter.  He was disqualified, since he failed to meet the requirement in 1 Tim. 3 that a bishop be “the husband of one wife.”

Yes, we have a long way to go, but at least we’re finally heading the right direction.

David Handy+

Thank you, David+.  I agree.