The mistake is to blame the music - it’s the consumer, the people who created a market for the music who are to blame.

“Colorado Police Link Rise in Violence to Music”

Well, I sure would like to smash a boom-box now and then! But, in spite of the fact that occassionally violence is golden, one of my suggestions to my pastor is to have a hymn-fest every Sunday evening on his deck. A peaceable solution that is more likely to have a godly outcome.

When I worked at an inner city swimming pool one summer, the pool manager, who lived in the neighborhood, banned the music because of the violence that the music accompanied.  It always aroused passions which eventually erupted into violence.

Howerver, because there are plenty of non-violent teens listening to the music in their parent’s “$1MM++ homes inside gates” and they don’t get into trouble with it, I have to believe that it isn’t the music, but rather the violent nature of some who enjoy it that is the problem.  It can certainly a spark for those who lead violent lives.

I just sent a check to our local opera to keep real music in the schools by the way.

No it isn’t just the consumer. It’s the music, just the way it is the drugs. Do the police wish to detroy hip—hop? Let’s hope so. And good luck to them. LM

“This city wants to shut down hip-hop,” said Mike Cross, 26, “They don’t want it to survive.”

That may have something to do with the fact that the rappers don’t care if YOU survive their “art”.  It’s time to label poison as such, regardless of its form.

Plato mentioned in his Republic that different types of music have differing effects on the soul.  My students often scoff at that, until they consider the reasons why they all have iPods: the music we listen to definitely affects us.  Plato also pointed out that one of the powers of music is that it easily bypasses the gatekeepers of reason, so what we listen to often affects our soul without our being aware of it. 

This doesn’t mean that the Colorado police are right; just that one of their premises (i.e. that music affects the way we think and behave) is something others who’ve thought about it have agreed with.

I find it impossible to believe that a steady diet of lyrics idolizing violence and treating women as objects has no effect on the listeners.  Similarly, I can’t believe that pornography which views women and children as objects to be exploited has no effect on the viewer.

There are beginning to be black critics of gangsta rap who say the same thing, so it’s not just a case of the Springs police against the minority community.  If there are murders and fights around country bars, the police will patrol there, too, and if the music inside urges anti-social behavior, I hope that would bring protests.  Country music doesn’t, usually.

I disagree with some semantics here.  In this case, the music does not degrade women or encourage violence.  The lyrics do.  It may seem petty to some to make the distinction, but it’s a pet peeve of mine.  On a side note, my family attended a Christian festival over the weekend (Shoutfest) and one of my kids’ favorite performers was Lyrycyst- a hip-hop rap artist who spoke to the evils of “regular hip hop”, gave a testimony of what the gangsta lifestyle did to his life and how Christ redeemed him, and through time his whole family (who had suffered a myraid of problems).  They came to the Lord through his commitment to the Lord, his prayers for his family and his witness to them.  His lyrics were uplifting and encouraging.  They were brutally honest and called the gangsta rap out as the trash that it is.  They lifted and exalted our Lord above all.  He gave credit to Christ alone for the change in his life, for his success, for his marriage, for everything.  He was very talented.  Regarding his music- not my favorite.  Not even CLOSE!  But his lyrics- as amazingly fast as they came out- they touched my heart.  Just as watching fans of his raise their hands and praise our Lord proved to me that the sound of the music really shouldn’t matter- the message does. The music is nothing more than background sounds for whatever message the artist is trying to convey through his/her lyrics.  It also gave me an opportunity to explain to my children that all music that may “sound” like that isn’t appropriate.  We talked about why Lyrycyst’s songs were different than what some of the neighborhood kids may listen to that may sound similar.  It was a frank, honest discussion.  They still loved him, and I will buy his cd for them when it comes out.  (With instructions to keep the volume level on their stereo below 3!  Pray for me!)  I’ve heard it said that there is no such thing as Christian music- just Christian lyrics.  I tend to agree.

Of rap, we may correctly say tha there is no music involved. It is, actually, rhymical speaking, and the lyrics are its all in all. And the amusing point is, that you can understand the lyrics. At least with most rock, you cannot understand what is said; it’s like listening to opera: if the lyrics were the test of its excellence, none but idiots would listen to opera.
  LM

This is amusing.  Everyone knows that we are effected by what we see and hear.  It plays on out emotions and we frequently act on them.  We know this to be true.  Watch a movie without the music.  And note that the entire advertising industry is built on the fact that sight and sound can motivate people.
Yet, when it comes to something like this, or indeed, movies themselves, liberals go into instant denial and posit that control is unnecessary because people are not effected by what they put out.

Sorry for the instant denial, but I really don’t believe music makes people do things. The fault lies in ourselves.

I agree that it’s the music.  God knows that if we banned country and western (one of my favorites by the way), there would be a drastic reduction in alcohol abuse, sexual promiscuity, adultery, and divorce ( some of the recurrent themes of CW lyrics).  Also, we all know that the incredibly high rate of illegitimate children and cases of amnesia is directly attributable to soap operas.  Yes, we are affected by what we see and hear, and certainly communities need to have and enforce standards for what is acceptable public speech and behavior but let’s be careful with the control.  After all, we’re only happy with control if it’s controlling “that and them” (whatever that and them may be), but when someone wants to control us, that’s when the problem begins.  Personally, I detest hip-hop and rap and when my children were growing up, I tolerated it up until the first “f bomb”, “n word”, or lyrics about “bitches”.  The it went off and stayed off.

Will B, before there *was* country music about drinking, adultery, etc., in my own family tree there were a number of alcoholics and adulterers, too. The sin lies in us. We may enjoy a musical, literary or artistic representation of it, but the thing that is wrong starts inside us.

Sherri, I have two things to say to you: “tongue”, “cheek”.  Get it?

Oops, sorry, Will B. :-(

Sherri, music can “influence” you to do things.  I didn’t say it “made” anyone “do” anything.  It can stir the emotions and you may act on those emotions.  But if you doubt the power of external stimulus fine.

#11 (Br. Michael)
By claiming that “what liberals do” when confronted by such and such does not really help get to the truth of the matter. If your wish was to caricature liberals, then it was certainly achieved. If it was to remark that liberals (political, economic, religious or social?) deny that violent music encourages violence, then I disagree with your characterization as sweeping and simplistic.

#11—Brother Michael:it is unfair to think that liberals are the only ones concerned about control.  Conservatives who are adamant about maintaining the letter of the law are rightly upset when someone begins suggesting tampering with the Bill of Rights.  And libertarians are even more upset when someone seeks to circumvent the rights of the individual.  Liberals, who are now everyone’s favorite whipping post, don’t like the idea that one group or individual group should be singled out for “special treatment”.  Therefore,I must agree with Nate that your characterization was, at best, simplistic.

Bro. Michael, I don’t doubt external influence at all. I do doubt that it is predictable to any useful extent and I think it is a misdirection in trying to solve problems to blame music, the movies, etc. - those are symptoms more than causes. IMO, of course.

I believe it was the leader of the Bolshevik Revolution that said, “The quickest way to destroy a culture is through its music.”

#20: I would offer three evidences that you are incorrect about music not being causal.

 
Does religious music stimulate belief? I offer here the King’s College Choir singing Anglican anthems and psalms. Can you listen to them and not feel a swelling of religious affirmation that could not be obtained if the words were simply read? If music is not causative, why is it central to Christian service?

Armies always play martial music when they march. Why not play the Beatles? Or is it that martial music generates attitudes of acceptance?

If music is not causative, why do all stores play Christmas music at Christmas time?
    Larry

I suspect that the denial of the ability to play a certain type of music would merely mean that the violent members of the subculture who like that music would simply not show up at the venue.

Archer, I don’t recall that the Bolshevik conquests owed much to music? And Larry, religious music is, to me, one of the highest *expressions* of belief, but I have not heard anyone say that it caused belief. Among believers, it stirs us to higher faith - but does it turn non-believers into believers?

When people hear lyrics that repeat themes like infidelity, promiscuity, bad language, drug use and see films and TV shows with these common subjects an end result can be that they see these things as common, that other people have these temptations and succumb to them and you get the “all the other guys are doing it” rationale otherwise called desensitization.  Anyone working with these problems knows this is true which is why victims are encouraged to stay out of bad company.  Furthermore, many people are emotionally affected by music which can inspire both base and lofty passions depending on tempo, dynamics, key and so on.  Most musicians study the various modes in which music is written (mode not being fashion but structure) and the emotional result thereof.  So yes, both music and lyrics have the potential to influence behavior when the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak.

Sigh, one need only look at the pageantry and ceremonies orchestrated in the Third Reich.  Goebbels was a master of manipulation and he used all the media.  One need only watch “Triumph of the Will” and one is almost swept away in spite of oneself.  Advertising is also a master of manipulation.  Think about all the cute jingles they use to sell everything from hamburgers to automobiles.  Music can and does sway the emotions and can have a powerful influence on behavior.

#24. “I have not heard anyone say tha music caused belief.”  But I am saying that it can and does, for the music has power beyond words. To sit in KC Chapel and hear the choir sing is to be washed in the willingness to believe. Beauty calls in a language only the heart understands, but its power is great, and it is a dull dull man who can listen to the soaring harmonies and not know that such beauty cannot be accidental and cannot lie. Is beauty truth? Is that all I need to know? When one listens to the anthems, the answer is clear. When one walks out on to the street and the taxis jangle and curse and the creeps slither by with purple hair and enough iron in their faces to bend a compass, then your heart’s knowledge grows distant, unclear, uncertain, and for many, little by little is overwhelmed. But not for all.

  What surprises me is that you would argue tht music is not causative. Larry

I have to agree with Sherri here.

The word that comes to mind is “responsibility”.  Music does not make anyone do anything.  People have a choice when it comes to their actions.  Yes, music can influence people just as much as television, movies, or games can influence people (some more than others).  But the ultimate choice is up to the human being who is RESPONSIBLE for their actions.  For example, my sister and I watched the same cartoons when we were children.  I enjoyed them for what they were…cartoons.  My sister, on the other hand, acted out what she saw even though she knew deep down that hitting others was wrong.  But then my sister has always been a rebel, and has made her decisions to do what she wants to do.  Of course she was influenced by what she saw but she knew (and still knows) that she had a choice.  She just didn’t care.

We were each responsible for our own actions and were willing to face the consequences of those actions.  My sister didn’t care if she got into trouble, I did.

Human beings are not robots controlled by outside forces, we are controlled by our own actions and we must each take responsibility for them.  To indicate cause is to imply responsibility.  To blame behavior on music as a cause is to imply that music is responsible for the behavior, not the human being.  That just ain’t so.

“The mistake is to blame the music—-it’s the consumer, the people who created a market for the music who are to blame”

The mistake is also to exonerate the music. Criticizing the music is essential to changing consumers’ music-buying behavior.

PS: It’s not as though any consumer went out and agitated for someone to create this stuff. Hip-hop labels made it cool and persuaded consumers to want it. That also deserves criticism.

Criticizing the music, yes - I’m with you there. Hip-hop labels hoped to make the music cool - it wasn’t written in stone that they would succeed. That depended on the people who listened. (Think, for instance, of the manufactured “pop” groups, designed my Madison Avenue types to be the “next Beatles” or whatever - most fizzed out after a year or two at most, I think?) It’s awful to me that people make this music, but it’s a whole lot scarier that there are people who have seized on it and claimed it as their own.

Sherri: Agreed. Persuading teenagers NOT to do or buy something cool is never easy, as the very act of campaigning against it gives it an ever greater cachet. But with gangsta rap (as, for that matter, with all advertising) we should encourage people to think about the message they are buying and the values they are acting out.
_ _ _ _ _

Feeding yourself a steady diet of violent films and homicidal lyrics doesn’t make you violent. But it will tend to affect your values, impulse control, and attitudes towards others.

A personal example may underscore the point. If I watch two hours of motorcycle chase scenes or Battle of Britain dogfights, I’ll be tempted to drive much faster on the way home than I ordinarily would. Straitlaced though I may be, the excitement of the chase will inhibit my inhibitions—-so that I may need to make a conscious decision to exercise the sort of care that would otherwise come instinctively. The movie doesn’t “make” me speed. But by affecting my emotional chemistry, it makes excessive speed more tempting.

And there is no doubt that a teenager would be more susceptible than an adult. I don’t argue the affect, but I just think it’s wrong-headed to blame the music as the *cause*. Influence, yes, cause, no. Other influences, also condemnable, would include, in some cases, uninvolved parents and dangerous friends. As Courageous Grace says, human beings are responsible for their behavior.