It’s not for me to tell Reform Jews what to do, but of what possible use is a Prayer Book having something for people who don’t believe in God?

The article considerably simplifies the shift that the book represents in language referencing the divine.  This is not “prayer for atheists” - rather, this is the inclusion of prayers that don’t mention God, as an alternative but (and this is key) not a replacement.

And this is only sort of related, but: the idea that religion and the worship of a God are the exact same thing is a little flawed.  That notion, along with the idea that belief in God (or belief at all, really) is endemic to religion, is a Christian idea, not a universal constant.  Just something to keep in mind when reading about stuff like this.

Surely belief in God has always been endemic to Judaism, though.

again, I think the idea of God, of the divine, has always been there, but the notion of Belief - as in, you believe or you don’t believe, so which side of the line are you on? - has been retroactively mapped onto Judaism by Christianity.  It’s not that Jews don’t believe in God, or don’t have to - it’s that the very question of whether you do or you don’t is a little less relevant than what you do.

#3, Do you understand what #4 just said? I seemed to have missed something. Larry

I do not attend worship to expect to find my preferences met. I go to worship God and discover His attitudes about me.

I would gently suggest; if you like your prayer book then it is unlikely that you are challenged by God. God is a difficult entity to deal with. Repentance is terrifying. God is not tame.

It is impossible to square “Shema, Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai echod” with prayers that do not require theism.

I wish to clarify my post. I do not encourage the idiocy of the new Jewish prayer book, I only am relating to the cause of the creation of such contents as the book has. It is not uncommon, especially in these existential days, to purposefully provide for those who have itchy ears. TEC has done so, and others have done so as well. Even the Roman Catholics are suffering under the problem. So, I am not surprised to see the problem in other religious settings.

I think what #4 is expressing might be better stated this way (though I’m not saying this is what the commenter meant):

Until recently the question of whether or not one believed in the existence of God was a moot point, “even the demons believe” etc… It wasn’t a question of whether one believed the divine existed, but rather, what sort or number of divinities there are.  Hence, the fact that believing in Christ, is not so much about believing that Christ exists as it is basing your hope and your life upon him.

That said, it doesn’t seem helpful to include prayers that don’t address God, since today there are certainly people who claim to deny the very existence of the Holy One and are therefore so far outside of the historic understanding of faith as to be incomprehensible to our forebears, whether Jewish or Christian.

All that is to say, that #4 may be right to say our questions of belief in or disbelief of have to read back into Judaism.  I would argue that it has to be read back into Christianity and nearly every other religion as well, even supposedly atheistic ones such as Buddhism.  It is a modern affliction to disbelieve the supernatural and divine.

I was playing from time to time in a reform synagogue when the last prayer book was introduced.  Interesting that its goal seemed to be to incorporate more Hebrew prayers.  Their previous prayer book was more accessible to non Hebrew speakers, Jewish or gentile.  As a goyem organist, I had to struggle to follow the Hebrew letters in order to figure out when to play the next item.  This new one looks like a move to more ethnic Judaism, when really the mark of Judaism is belief in God, a God who is so powerful that to honor him you do not even name him, but replace that name with “, or “adonai.”

There are many Jews who identify themselves as Jewish yet also are agnostic or athiest. For these Jews, Judiasm is a culture, a heritage, rather than a religion.  Temple (or synagogue) is someplace you GO, whether you believe in G-d or not. It’s something Jews do, and have always done, it’s part of what makes a Jew a Jew.

Thus, the ‘prayers’ that do not mention G-d are for these cultural Jews, probably so that they “feel the welcome” and don’t neglect “buying their seat” at the High Holy Days services.

Shalom!
Jim Elliott
(a goy for Y’Shua)

Well, if every time the invoke Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, they also have to mention Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah, it seems really unfair to leave out Hagar, Bilhah and Zilpah.

And when they mention David, are they going to go through the roll call of all 700 wives and 300 porcupines?

How can one be a Jew and an athiest at the same time? How can there be such a thing as an ethnic Jew? I have heard this all before, but it never made sense to me and still doesn’t. A Jew has to be one who belongs to a religion called Judaism? One for who the Schema says it all? This prayer book is TEC wearing a shawl, isn’t it?  LM

To some people a Jew can be a Jew AND (fill in the blank) EXCEPT a believer in Y’Shua as Messiah. That is the one forbidden modifier.

The Jewish guy I knew who dropped the most Yiddish in casual conversation was a religious illiterate and about as secular as you could be.

LJ: How can one be Jew and have no religion at all.
Beiing Jewish is not an ethnicity; Jews have come from all sors of cultures. One cn be an ethnic Israeli, I guess, but an ethnic Jew? What ethos would this come from? If such a one is unattacjed to his old religion, how can you define a Jew? He is recognizable as…..? LJ, this doesn’t make sense. Larry

Larry, I didn’t say it was MY view, did I?  Nope. Did I say I agreed iwth it? Again, Nope. It’s the view espoused by Jews themselves, “Judaism to me is my heritage and culture. it’s TRADITION not religion” (see below). 

Have you ever read “the Rabbi Small” mysteries by Harry Kemmelman?  Every type of Jew that claims the “AND” clause is represented in his books.  Give them a try (they might be out of print, but you can find them @ the Library, or used book shops).

Or visit a reformed or liberal synagogue sometime you’ll meet them there, too. 

I heard about this phenomena from “Jews For Jesus” and their presentations where they made the statement I quoted above “Today you can be a ‘Jew AND a (fill in the blank)’ except a Jew and a believer in Y’shua.” Which was the lead in to their song version of “Tradition” (if you get a chance to see their musical troupe “Liberated Wailing Wall” GO! they are a fantastic intro to Messianic Judaism!)

Shalom!
Jim Elliott

apologies;
Harry Kemelman spells his name with only two m’s not three.
K-E-M-E-L-M-A-N.  Your librarian would probably spot it, but the circulation desk staff part-timer may not.

A quote I found from the website Clerical Detectives by Philip Grosset that may help Larry with his confusion over the contradiction in Judaism as a religion vs. Judaism as a ‘culture’:

... as Kemelman points out, Jews don’t have any sort of creed to believe in (“With us, faith in the Christian sense is almost meaningless, since God is by definition unknowable… Our religion is a code of ethical behavior.”). Similarly rabbis shouldn’t be compared to clergymen, as what they really are are experts in the law and not ordained ministers.

Remember, this is a quote from a Jewish Author, not from ME!