A church built on lies will not prosper.  Rather it will die a certain death. TEC,  it is still not too late to repent!

I believe it is never too late to repent. But, those bishops in TEC….they are not going to get that cat back into the bag. No way.

bob lee

If the HoB had a shred of integrity, it would take the lead of Susan Russell, and honest reappraiser, and prophetically shout the new thing of the Holy Spirit courageously come what may.  That they don’t proves to me that it is not a movement of the Holy Spirit among the revisionist bishops that motivates them, but a carnal desire to sit at Lambeth.  How incredibly pathetic. Small minds, small hearts, hollowed out men and women with no chests!

I thought the message was quite clear.

Those of us who believe firmly in the full inclusion of gay and lesbain persons in the life of the church, may still respond with respect and consideration for our brothers and sisters who do not agree.  I find it quite disingenous that those who rail against TEC’s unwillingness to listen to the rest of the Communion, belittle us when we do.  Courtesy and Christian behaviour are not signs of weakness—- that’s something many in the conservative camp need to learn.  Of course, we believe in “full inclusion”. If you do not, you are still our brother or sister in our Lord Jesus.  In Christ’s name, we are trying to meet you, listen to you and love you where you are.  If you are not willing, then you are not willing.  Say so.  You need to be honest too.

#5, do you consider the HoB response from New Orleans to be a legitamate attempt to listen to the Communion and respons accordingly?  If so, how?

“In Christ’s name, we are trying to meet you, listen to you and love you where you are.”

How is that being shown?

Rolling Eyes:

#5, do you consider the HoB response from New Orleans to be a legitamate attempt to listen to the Communion and respons accordingly?  If so, how?

“In Christ’s name, we are trying to meet you, listen to you and love you where you are.”

Rolling: They listened and they still love us, but since they know so much better than we and the rest of the Anglican Communion, they are going to go ahead full steam on what they know to be the right course. 

But they still love us!!  Isn’t that nice?

Yes, I do.  In a way that is painful to many, our HOB restated their willingness to exercise retraint in granting consents—for the sake of the Communion, even if it goes against our Gospel beliefs, because we believe that communion is of the Gospel also—and that no rites of same sex blessings have been authorized—which again is painfully true to many. Do you know how many of us, have truly sacrificed, and how many feel sacrificed by this statement? Why is it that TEC and those of us who may be said to hold a liberal position (although I think such names are not helpful) are the only ones who need to listen? Should not those who claim a “conservative” position listen as well?  At a certain point, it is hard to know what else to do.  At this point it is hard to know what else our Bishops can do to satisfy some in the communion—other than violate the canons of the church and completly capitulate to the demands of the “conservatives”. What more do you want?  I think we have truly tried to listen and to love, but it has not been returned.

Garth: “In a way that is painful to many, our HOB restated their willingness to exercise retraint in granting consents—for the sake of the Communion, even if it goes against our Gospel beliefs, because we believe that communion is of the Gospel also—and that no rites of same sex blessings have been authorized”

But, Garth, it’s been proven time and time again that while that is the rhetoric TEC is putting forth, the reality is exactly the opposite.  They do whatever they want to do in spite of the requests from the rest of the Communion.  That is why there is skepticism, or “belittling” comments, as you called them.

“Why is it that TEC and those of us who may be said to hold a liberal position (although I think such names are not helpful) are the only ones who need to listen? Should not those who claim a “conservative” position listen as well? “

Yes, and countless requests for explanations and defense of the more “liberal” positions have been requested, and NOTHING is ever offered. 

“At this point it is hard to know what else our Bishops can do to satisfy some in the communion”

Follow the requests of the Tanzania Communique.  It’s quite easy.

“violate the canons of the church and completly capitulate to the demands of the “conservatives”.”

Submitting to the desires of the rest of the Communion, which TEC is part of, is NOT violating the canons of TEC.  Whoever told you so is a liar.  It’s simply called “being in Communion”.

“I think we have truly tried to listen and to love, but it has not been returned.”

With all due respect, you haven’t been paying attention.

Hey Allen, I do love you.  Jesus tells me to, even if I don’t know or understand you.  To be honest, we are not exactly going full steam ahead—- at least it doesn’t seem like it to many of us.  In fact, it seems like pretty slow progress to me—but I know it may seem like the absolute wrong direction to you.    As has often been the case, we Christians are in a big battle.  Yes, we think we’re right.  You think you’re right.  But I may not be right and you may not be right.  The truth is that neither of us is completely right. It is not possible for us humans to have all the answers.  That’s why we have to trust God.  Trust him and love one another.  If we can’t do that, then we don’t have much business calling ourselves Christians, do we?

I’m not sure what to say, Rolling Eyes, except that Communion has to go both ways.  Plenty has been said and offered, but it seems that those who do not want to hear, do not hear.  I suspect you will say the same of us.  And it is certainly true of many on our side,mysef included at times.  But where do we go, from here—-beyond disparaging one another and refusing to listen?  You say simply folow the Tanzania communique.  It is not that simple.  It asks things that are not possible and that cannot be given in good conscience.  Is that communion, or love, to make ultimatums, with which the other cannot comply? Or does Christ ask us to seek common ground in Him?  I do believe we are trying.  Perhaps we have been unwilling to capitulate to the demands of the other side, Nut I do not believe that TEC has made similiar demands of our communion partners.  Have we told Nigeria how to order their life?  Does love conquer all things or not?  God bless you,  and strengthen you to do his work in whatever part of the church you are in.

Garth: With due respect, the commandments are Love (obey and fear) Him and love one another.  Our fear is that your trust is misplaced.

Because we love you, we fear that your souls are being imperiled by those of your so called leaders who appear to put their pride before your salvation.

“Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved….  Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

Peace be unto you.

Progressives also need to state what they believe…put it in writing and give the pew potatoes something to chew on and decide do I believe that or not.  I mean, is Jesus the Son of God, was Mary a virgin, is Jesus the only way, etc.

When I have told friends what the progressives don’t believe in, they are flabbergasted.  They tell me they don’t agree with the beliefs of the progressives.  I then ask them why they are still there and I get a deer in the headlight stare.  It goes right over their heads and they still wonder why I left….

I think the headline is mistitled.  The bishops were struggling to find an unclear message.  They succeeded.

“Episcopal leaders struggle to find a clear message”—-Cincinnati Post

A struggle far deeper than the issues discussed in New Orleans.