More of the good ol’ American “We can do what we want and no one—not even God—can tell us any differently!” attitude.

“This is who we are and this is what we do.”

And this has nothing to do with how well a person can minister a congregation…..what a wonderful Christian example and role model for the people of her congregation, especially the youth…..what pride and arrogance.

Either Ms. Rude’s ordination is invalid or ELCA just saw their policy go down the drain.

Either Ms. Rude’s ordination is invalid or ELCA just saw their policy go down the drain.

Actually this is the essence of the policy - to effect the change without stampeding the herd.  Bishop A can quietly allow homosexual ministers to assume positions, while Bishop B can say with a straight face “We don’t ordain non-celebate homosexuals.”  It will work fine so long as the masses under Bishop B don’t realize what Bishop A is doing somewhat under the radar.

carl

#2 - Daniel -
She is a wonderful example to her congregation. The pride and arrogance come from those condemning her. Bishop Tutu (in a recent statement which I don’t think Kendall has published here) is calling that condemnation homophobia. So am I.

Fred: “Bishop Tutu…is calling that condemnation homophobia. So am I.”

Well, Fred, that’s just further proof (as if anymore were needed) that you don’t know what the heck you’re talking about.

Of course you are, Fred.  But let`s look at `homophobia` and break the word down.  Homo=same, as in `homogenous`.  Phobia=fear.

So homophobia actually means fear of the same.  From a strictly linguistic viewpoint, homophobia doesn`t mean what you think it means, now does it?

But let`s play along and assume that homophobia DOES mean what you think it means.  My gay friends, including one of my oldest and dearest friends, (who know that I love them but do not condone their behavior) would take great offense at you calling `pride and arrogance` and expressing one`s opinion that just happens to be different from your own `homophobia`.  When will people like you learn that IT`S ABOUT THE BEHAVIOR, NOT THE PERSON.  Disapproving behavior of which one does not approve is NOT homophobia, either as you use the word or in it`s actual meaning.  Please do try to comprehend this.

Hmmm.  Only 7 comments and this is already getting hot & personal in terms of how folks are responding to one another.

And in the meantime, please focus on the article rather than baiting each other.

Another nail in the coffin of the mainstream Protestant Reformation churches. The article says some in the congregation wept (presumably in joy over the hammering of the nails). But if there was anyone who wept, it was probably Martin Luther—and not in joy.

Comments are open again.

But some ground rules:  No insults based on the woman’s name.  And please read the article carefully, don’t just make assumptions or use this as a chance to dash off some flippant one-liner.

Two comments on the same article over at SF raised some interesting issues readers and commenters here might want to consider:

For what it is worth (and, admittedly, it is not worth much), Jen Rude is not a pastor in the ELCA.  She was not approved for ordination because of her refusal to promise to abide by the requirement forbidding homosexual relations of the ordained ministers of the church.  The congregation chose to hold an “irregular” ordination service without approval from the bishop or the synod.  The real issue is that Bishop Miller has said he will not discipline Resurrection Lutheran Church for this clear violation of church policy.
Posted by Marshall Hahn on 11-19-2007 at 12:26 PM

and:

“For what it is worth (and, admittedly, it is not worth much), Jen Rude is not a pastor in the ELCA.  She was not approved for ordination because of her refusal to promise to abide by the requirement forbidding homosexual relations of the ordained ministers of the church.  The congregation chose to hold an “irregular” ordination service without approval from the bishop or the synod.  The real issue is that Bishop Miller has said he will not discipline Resurrection Lutheran Church for this clear violation of church policy.”

Yes, Marshall Hahn, an important difference between the ELCA and TEC, even if it is one that may not ultimately hold, is that the ELCA has explicitly stated that it will not ordain practicing homosexuals.  Whether they have any more integrity than TEC does with respect to its official positions or the consensus of the universal church remains to be seen.  In the NYC region, ELCA parishes have been the only ones I know of that have welcomed ACI board members as guest homilists, celebrants and teachers.  So there still seems to be a difference that makes a difference, but whether it will hold given the onslaught is the question.

Ultimately, I hope that the orthodox of TEC and ELCA will realign together in one body that draws closer and closer, as it should be, but that’s all in God’s hands now.
Posted by Seen-Too-Much on 11-19-2007 at 06:03 PM

#10, re: the SF comment of a realignment of orthodox TEC and ELCA, as I mentioned on SF, due to a lack of orthodox ELCA seminaries, I think that the future for the orthodox ELCA is quite dim, indeed.

Planets which orbit distant stars are too far away to be seen through our telescopes, but scientists make inferences about them, based on their graviational & light-dimming effects on other bodies.  In the same way, even though the elves orbitting Kendall are invisible to us, this scientist has been studying them & has reached some conclusions:

There are at least two of them.  The first, designated Elfa, is prim to the point of being humorless, and loves to delete creative comments.  She looks like my 3rd-grade teacher, Mrs Wigginton.

The second is Elfette.  She is fun-loving & relaxed.  She never deletes Wilfred’s comments.  She looks like my 9th-grade teacher, Miss Pearson (woo-hoo!), except that, being an elf, she has pointed ears like those chicks on Star Trek (woo-hoo!).  She has a mass of at least 1.5 x 10 kg less than Elfa.

There might be other elves, but this scientist is focussing his efforts on determining the orbital periods of these two, so that he can make his creative postings when Elfa is in eclipse & Elfette is at her zenith.

#12, LOL.  Sorry Wilfred.  I’m not sure which of us (elfgirl & elflady) you think is Elfa and which is Elfette.  I think you’d be surprised sometimes! 
I, elfgirl, am sometimes considered more lenient.  But there are times folks have thought I’m the more stringent one.  It depends on the situation and how much time we have to be patient with the thread.

To further your research about elvish habits, it was I, elfgirl who deleted your comment.  Some of it was funny/clever and I chuckled.  However, with your insult re: the unfortunate last name of the ordinand in question, it had to go.  Obviously that was last night before I’d stated the “no insults about her name” groundrule, but still, it had to go.  Sorry.

—elfgirl

She is a wonderful example to her congregation.

I’m puzzled…why is she such a wonderful example?  Because her theology is so sublime?  No, not a word was spoken of that in the article.  Because she’s a lesbian?  No, it seems that ELCA ordains homosexuals who take a vow of celibacy.  It would seem that she’s a celebrated as a wonderful example because she engages in homosexual acts.  Do I read you right?

See 12 and 13. 12 makes an interesting analysis, and I rather agree with him, except for this. There are more than two elves- at least four I think. There IS an elf of waspish and vinegarish disposition, but she is not an old maid. Elf girl we recognize, and she is in her thirties, married with children, and has at least a college degree in one of the humanities. Elflady is much like her only at least 20 years older. She was an Episcopalian but is not now. She has been a journalist - agreed? - and has had her hands on the reins of power before. Right? You know which one I mean? There is at least one more who seem to be quite young - early twenties and fairly laid back. I do wish they would publish pictures. My curiosity is very great, although Elfgirlanism is a worthwhile study that would have fascinated Sherlock and Mycroft as well.  Larry

#15.  LOL!  Except for the fact that speculation about the elves is totally off-topic, I’d say this is turning into a fascinating thread!   But, actually, it’s a slow comment day so far, so, we’ll let the fun continue, I guess.  The speculation is really fun to read.  [Yikes, I can’t believe I’m really encouraging you to continue this.  I must be off my elf meds or something, allowing blatantly off-topic comments!] 

Someday all shall be revealed about the elves, I’m sure.  I promise if/when I retire from elfing, I’ll publish a full tell-all, picture and all.  Something for y’all to look forward to.  In the meantime the mystery adds to the allure of T19.

—elfgirl

Under church policy, homosexual ministers are required to make a vow of celibacy before they can be ordained. But heterosexual ministers are not, and Rude, who is not in a relationship, refused to make that vow because she considers the policy discriminatory.

I for one think it IS discriminatory.  Unmarried heterosexual ministers should have to take the vow as well.  As a friend of mine has pointed out, much of our problem is based on the fact that we do not support people who are single and celibate.  We pity them.  We try to set them up on dates.  Worse, we patronize them.  We do not honor and support them as having a vocation of singleness.  Instead we in TEC and elsewhere snigger at “abstinence” programs.  The fact that ELCA doesn’t make heterosexual pastors take this pledge is very telling.  We’re letting the sexual revolution rule the Church.  Our theology of holiness is going out the window.  But this very argument often gets me labelled “neo-puritan”. 

Several of the more than 100 congregants present wept as the 27-year-old stood before them

Not to be too snarky, but I’d have been crying too.

And as for the elves, back to Valinor with the lot of you. 

This sounds like a case of “... the blind leading the blind and they both fall into the ditch..”  Nuff said!!

Aren’t ECUSA/TEC and ELCA paired up in some semi-communal if both bishops agree to breaking some wafers together sort of way?  And this has produced the same wonderful results in ELCA as in ECUSA/TEC, has it not - at least as far as janus-faced failure of deliberations and adherence to policy?

Seems that old saw about watching the company one keeps didn’t get passed on to the ELCA.  For here we see the SOP of ECUSA/TEC at play.  (Standard Operating Procedure).

Under church policy, homosexual ministers are required to make a vow of celibacy before they can be ordained. But heterosexual ministers are not, and Rude, who is not in a relationship, refused to make that vow because she considers the policy discriminatory.

The actual standard in the ELCA (see the document Vision and Expectations) is:

Single ordained ministers are expected to live a chaste life. Married ordained ministers are expected to live in fidelity to their spouses, giving expression to sexual intimacy within a marriage relationship that is mutual, chaste, and faithful. Ordained ministers who are homosexual in their self-understanding are expected to abstain from homosexual sexual relationships.

No one is asked to take a “vow of celibacy.”

A good standard. And not in my opinion discriminatory. (I’m happily corrected).  I guess she is not willing to promise to “abstain”.