“As for Ascension, the issue really hasn’t surfaced.”

The issue is the monster in the closet.
Is there anyone from that parish who would want to comment?

Ascension Pueblo is, of course, the parish served by Dr. Ephrim Radner for many years.

I wonder how it could be that in a parish where Ephraim Radner was the rector for so many years the issues around the recent conflicts in the larger church have not yet surfaced?

How was this particular interim chosen?  Was it a parish search with acceptable options made to the vestry?  Did the vestry delegate the choice to the bishop?  Did the bishop offer options and the vestry chose one?  Did the vestry look for an interim who needed to come and heal deep divisions?  Or just a caretaker while they did their own work of profiling the parish and preparing for the search of a permanent rector?
Interims CAN have a powerful influence in a congregation.  But they are, after all, temporary.  Temps will, in the course of pastoral ministry, hear some of the concerns and issues, and joys and fears; but rarely - unless extremely gifted - get a firm handle on the whole enchilada.  And certainly the interim cannot and should not be expected (nor perhaps even allowed) to be authoritative spokespersons for the identity and nature of a congregation they are temporarily serving.

But I don’t recall this parish being labeled as placid anywhere along the line.  If they are a smart congregation, being in Colorado, they would have learned from your situation, Don (in 3), and won’t be letting it all hang out just now.  Not so a temp can without their permission (I would presume) answer a reporter’s sensationalized-agenda question.

RGEaton

Dear Rob,

What I hear is that all the priests filling vacancies in Colorado are appointed by the Bishop as priests in charge and report directly to him…in some cases these are long tern arrangements.

I have also heard that the conservatives in Colorado have gone underground to avoid the expense and slander I have had to endure…and to wait for the diocese to use up all its resources on me, leaving them then relatively free to depart without a legal response from a then bankrupt diocese.

Ephraim was a fine pastor and left this parish in great shape…but they are solidly conservative without a doubt…and their lay leadership, if it is still there, was very clear and well informed.

Don Armstrong

You know, when I first sought ordination, the door was closed in my face.  It was one of the most painful experiences of my life - perhaps the most painful - even although in hindsight I could see that it was providential.  To avoid going off post, I won’t go into why it was providential, nor into how in God’s mercy I did become a Roman Catholic priest.  But when I hear of women longing for priesthood, I remember how desolate that feeling can be, and somewhere within myself I weep with them at the sense of gifts denied and a calling denied.  I am faithful to my church.  But what can we, should we, say to women in that position?  By ‘we’ I suppose I mean RCs and conservative Anglicans.

Don,
Nice affirmation of the parish.  Well done.

I am sure you are praying for them to find the right person to be Ephraim’s successor.  I will join you in that prayer.
And how ARE things going for you?  Anything to be praying about specifically?

RGEaton

““The Episcopal Church once passed a resolution stating that gays and lesbians have full rights to pastoral care. Bishop Robinson was totally above board in this matter, never hiding or denying his sexual orientation, and he was chosen by his (New Hampshire) diocese and confirmed by the nationwide convention.”

NO ONE is saying nor has said that G & L’s are not entitled to pastoral care. The issue is when they as a passenger on a boat decide to be the captain of the ship, and expect others to follow his orders.  Or, in another way, since when does a sick patient. while being treated, become the doctor and practices medicine or performs surgery?.  This is precisely what Robinson and others have done or are pushing.
H

According to members of the search committee, we apparently had a choice of two interims - one of whom asked for a salary that we couldn’t afford and one from a very liberal church in Boston.

Ephraim+ tried to bring diocesan, national politics into the parish. Rather, he tried to provide an orthodox oasis. In this he was successful, perhaps too successful. I was pretty much clueless about the issues until he asked me to serve on the CLCC and I discovered Titus and Standfirm. I don’t think that I was atypical of the Ascension parishioner.

Ephraim+ mentioned in one of his sermons that all the parishes that he has served at failed after he left. I would ascribe this to the obvious huge void that he leaves. I think how crazy it was that we had someone of his stature in our dinky parish.

Robroy,

I feel a little sad reading your comments.  How are things going now at Ascension under this interim priest?

sjengelhardt

Robroy,
Thanks for chiming in.  Don’s point, of course, that even though not elected, interims must be licensed by the bishop, speaks to the fact that a bishop can, if they so choose, assert authority over whatever choice a parish might make on their own in that regard. 
Your information still makes me curious:  did the search committee receive these two names from the bishop’s office and were asked (implied: directed) to “pick one”, as the search committee might have requested of the bishop’s office?  Or did the search committee actually do a search for an interim, only to find out these two were the only ones available and willing to relocate (good interims are few and far between - far between because the few ones of good reputation get snapped up quickly by bishops with vacancies)?

(For all reading—this is not a conversation of mere curiousity.  This kind of information can and should be helpful to any congregation in the midst of a search or gearing up for the inevitability of one.  Read your by-laws, read the diocesan canons, be prepared, exert your canonical rights.  And for purposes of disclosure: more power to any reasserter bishop who can make use of their authority to place reasserting interims in any and all vacancies.)

RGEaton

Thanks Robroy.
It is good to hear that the interim priest has been called to a place where she can both love and learn.
I was once told by an interim rector that his job was not to make people feel good, but it was to shake them up so that they would appreciate the new rector all the more. Perhaps the interim priest in this parish will be the one who gets shook up.

Dear Rob,

Thank you so much for asking about Grace Church.

We have a spiritually mature vestry and congregation. Due certainly to God’s grace in this time of trial we have all grown tremendously. God’s presence with us has filled our hearts to overflowing…it is an amazing experience.

It is something people who don’t know better fail to take into account when launching an assault against a Christian body…but I must say I wouldn’t have expected such holy fortification either.

Of course O’Neill’s accusations against me were clearly refuted by a complete forensic audit——and for that I am thankful.

Our property dispute will continue into the next year…a trial is set for February 2009 at the earliest, although a recent court ruling was clearly in our favor much the same as the rulings have been in Virginia.

Pray please for the continued resolve and funding to fight the good fight…and that we focus on our God given tasks and continue to remain undeterred from our primary work.

As a parish we have prayed for our enemies for the last year…and recently we realized that God had purged all enmity from our hearts…it was like a community wide conversion experience to have such a profound answer in our personal hearts to our common prayer.

Hope you are well too.

Don Armstrong

As I read this, my thought was, “The bishop of Colorado must have had a hand in deciding who could serve as interim in this parish.”  Glad to know I was right, but sad that the parish could not have had a better choice - even for someone temporary.

Oops, I noted a typo. I meant to say, “Ephraim+ tried not to bring diocesan, national politics into the parish.” To be honest, we haven’t been attending much. But attendance and giving are down. Ephraim+ and Annette+ understood the importance of children’s programs. There are very few families with kids attending now.

I would go to Father Don’s church (good liturgy and good sermons) but it is a bit of a drive, and often I need to be within 30 minutes of the hospital.

I can’t answer Father Rob’s questions. I have heard that there seem to be some good candidates for full time rector.

Ephraim+ mentioned in one of his sermons that all the parishes that he has served at failed after he left.

My Dad is a retired pastor. Once while talking with him about his career, he mentioned that he had noticed that every church he had been in had flourished after he left. He thought that God had called him to go into small churches with troubling dynamics and sort them out. He thought that raising strong and effective lay leadership was an important part of his job as pastor. Then, after he left, his successor would inherit a church with active lay leadership and it would flourish. It was hard work and seeing someone else do the reaping after you have done the labor was often difficult to accept. But this is all looking at church from a (mostly) congregationalist viewpoint, so I imagine things are a lot different in a hierarchical church.

#6.  I am an ordinary, rather dull, heterosexual, married, middle-aged father.  As a child, I had an intense longing to be a mother and a housewife, perhaps because my father was rather remote in the old-fashioned and unemotional British way.  It took me some years to understand at a personal and existential level that there is a divine plan for masculinity; it precludes the biological and social functions of motherhood and requires the responsibilities and behaviour of a father.  Women who wish to be priested need more thorough spiritual formation.

There is a depressing trend of Anglicans taking all the heterodox and envelope-pushing Catholics they can find; their influence, in my experience, is harmful to the retention of orthodoxy.  Meanwhile, the RC’s poach the best Anglicans.

This is from the current issue of the Ascension Pueblo newsletter and details the process of selecting a new rector:
“...
4. Canon to the Ordinary of the Diocese receives applications and does “red flag” checks (at the expense of the Diocese).
5. Canon to the Ordinary presents qualified list to Bishop O’Neill for his approval.
6. List is sent to Parish.
7. Discernment Committee begins review.

The current process differs from the past searches in that all applications are sent to the diocese and not directly to us. This is to our benefit. The efforts of the diocese assures us that all background checks have been made on these persons so that we will have no surprises (and they have covered the expense).”

I can’t believe all these questions and innuendos at this stage of the crisis!

Of course the bishop has deliberately put this person in this position, and has done so with a definite end in mind!

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, HOW DO YOU THINK WE GOT HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE???

However welcome or unwelcome, this interim will be there a long time.  During that time the Sunday School will be undermined and parents will quit bringing their children. The liturgy and sermons will be undermined, and faithful families will drift away. They will not be sought out and asked back. Eventually attendence will drop significantly yet there will be a definite set of newcomers. Oddly, they will all have the identical “laissez-faire attitude “. With this situation in place the new rector will be called. She will be white, middle class, middle-aged, divorced, and just out of seminary. At the next parish organizational meeting they will elect to diocesan convention a surprisingly familiar group of people.

What is there about this that is completely not predictable?

D.C. al Coda

MARION R #19: No, D.C. al Fine

Robroy,

Holy cow you said something in passing about Ephraim+ that I think you should look long and hard at, “Ephraim+ mentioned in one of his sermons that all the parishes that he has served at failed after he left.”
In the vast number of situations this is a commentary not on the new leadership, but the leadership that left.  Parish ministry is like parenthood…you don’t know how good a parent/priest you were until you meet your grandchildren.  The mark of a successful priesthood is how the place holds together AFTER a priest leaves.  Otherwise you’ve been entertaining a cult of personality who did little or nothing to build up empowered self-aware lay leadership.  I’m not saying that this is/was the case at this parish, but jeepers creepers…for a priest to openly admit that every place he’s pastored fell apart after he left is a huge opening to criticize both the leadership that came in after and the leadership that’s gone before…an even hand on judging history is a healthy thing…YIKES!

-YAKMAN

#6 Terry,
As an RC I would start by asking the woman what her definition of “calling” is. I don’t know about Anglican women priests in general but an awful lot seem to have been raised RC and have a similar desire of being a priest when they were young. It’s a misguided view IMO. One based on watching a priest and seeing him as a person at Mass, rather than as a representative of Christ. It’s a desire for affirmation, glory and a little bit of power, not sacrifice. No doubt many men have the same desire when young and eventually become priests but it’s not a good basis. No doubt there has been a drop in vocations in the RC church but it has a silver lining. Talking to men who have become RC priests in the last 25 years one thing you will hear often is “I never really thought about becoming a priest until….”. The vocation is an adult desire based on an adult understanding of the theology and of what is asked and required.

It’s clear from this woman by her description that this is a job and she is there to deliver a service. She could have done as well at the DMV or town hall. The only difference is she wouldn’t be a priest.