Reading the ENS update to this story, it seems that +Virginia deposed the clergy, as “... they had abandoned the Communion of the Episcopal Church.”

Well, that’s true enough, they did all leave the Episcopal Church and are now members of CANA and through that, the Anglican Church of Nigeria.

Move along, there’s nothing to see here.

ADV members are in full communion with constituent members of the Anglican Communion through its affiliation with CANA, a missionary branch of the Church of Nigeria. ADV members are a part of the worldwide Anglican Communion, a community of 77 million people.

Isn’t it interesting how they have changed the wording of their press releases to clear up their actual status.  They are now “a part of the worldwide Anglican Communion” as opposed to “another branch of the Anglican Communion.”

Actually, there doesn’t seem to be a surprise by these depositions.  There should neither be a surprise when the defendants seek to depose Peter James Lee, the members of his staff, the current and former PB and the staff of 815. 

This is litigation—it’s not a tea party.

Everyone loses when you litigate, those pulling Lee’s strings just figure they have the resources to inflict more harm and damage than they will incur.

I wonder, if one of the deposed has died, is Bishop Lee going to have their remains exhumed and placed on trial?

Just a little “reductio ad absurdem” thinking.

William

Deposed from the priesthood-aka defrocked;)

BfT19 - in my best Emily Litella, “Nevermind.”

thanks for clearing this up—I’ve spent the day reading through depos, so that’s my defense and I’m sticking to it.

Elves, feel free to wipe my comments and BfT19’s clarification if you like.

William Sulik and Brian from T19, thanks for the best laugh this former litigator has had all day!

It appears from the article in The Living Church that the Network bishops have licensed all the deposed priests to function in their dioceses since they recognize them as priests in good standing in the Anglican Communion.

Oop, ENS article.

Bp. Minns was not in this group. Was he already deposed?

#10 - No quite the opposite, last fall +Lee licensed +Minns, as a bishop of Nigeria, to serve as “priest-in-charge” of Truro Church until January 1, 2007. Thus the irony is +Lee is deposing priest for an organization he previously recognized a mere months before he inhibited.

KAR

He never recognized the legitimacy of CANA nor +Minns’ status as a bishop of the Anglican Communion.

When did the Episcopal Church become a Communion unto itself?  How can a church be in Communion with itself?  The Lutherans are in Communion with the Episcopalians, but the Episcopalians are not in Communion with itself, the Episcopal Church is a province - not a Communion.  The Communion is the Anglican Communion, unless something has changed?  Does the Episcopal Church think it is its own Communion now???  No wonder TEC continues to act unilaterally.  It continues to act as though its above Canterbury.  But it is Canterbury & the ACC that decides who’s in and who’s out and Nigeria and Uganda are still in.  Did Bishop Lee miss the memo - or is this more “reimagining” the canons?  Is he going to use the “short form” for deposing clergy?  What?  No short form???

If these clergy had all gone to Rome, not in Communion with the Episcopal Church or the other Anglican provinces, then they would no longer be in the Communion.  That has happened - when a priest goes to Rome he abandons in the Communion.  But these are clergy in other Anglican provinces that in Communion with The Episcopal Church (at least for now) - and one has even been elected by the entire House of Bishops of one of those provinces.  So indeed they are in the Communion. 

Last time I checked, The Episcopal Church is not a Communion unto itself, it is still a province.  The province is made up of dioceses - and it is now clear that not all the dioceses agree that these clergy are out of Communion with with the Episcopal Church.  They may not be in Communion with the Bishop of Virginia and his lawsuit-filing friends who seem eager to sever all ties and shut down all the work that was done for nearly a year with Bishop Lee’s own hand-picked committee that wrote the Diocese of Virginia Protocol for Departing Churches, but that is not the same as saying they have abandoned the Communion. 

What Bishop Lee is avoiding is an ecclesiastical trial - for he knows what would happen if he tried that.  He wants to do a Delores Umbridge and make examples out of these clergy.

And he is doing this in an attempt to scare other Episcopal clergy in the Diocese of Virginia from following in the footsteps of these clergy, no matter what happens after September.  “Take heed and remain Loyalists” he is saying to them, “or you will be next!”

bb

PS Martyn Minns was all ready an Anglican Bishop when Bishop Lee suddenly pulled the plug and started suing and inhibiting everybody. Though he seems to think that the Episcopal Church is a Communion unto itself, he must have recognized that he still doesn’t have the authority to defrock a Bishop in another province.  But he does seem to think he has the authority to defrock clergy in another province.  Obviously other TEC Diocesan Bishops strongly disagree.  Oops.

bb

#12 Brian—You are speaking half-truths!

DioVA press release October 2, 2006 - Letter from +Lee

On August 20, 2006, the Rt. Rev. Martyn Minns was consecrated a bishop in the Church of Nigeria. That act established his canonical residence in Nigeria and ended his canonical residence in the Diocese of Virginia. Consequently, as a Bishop from another province of the Anglican Communion, Martyn’s ability to function in any jurisdiction other than Nigeria, where he is canonically resident, requires that he be licensed by the Bishop with oversight.

While never mentioning CANA, +Lee does recognize the consecration (you’ll note that ++Carey never denied the consecration of +Murphy or +Rogers merely stating “irregular” - there very ecclesiastical good reason for the phrasing used or why they’re careful with their wording).

TEC is making up the rules as it goes along, but it pretends as if the rules have been there all along.

Look, TEC is in it’s death throws.  Do not expect locical consistancy.

KAR

+Lee recognizes him as a Bishop.  He does not recognize him as able to serve in his capacity as a Bishop outside the geographic Province of Nigeria:

Martyn’s ability to function in any jurisdiction other than Nigeria, where he is canonically resident, requires that he be licensed by the Bishop with oversight.

Therefore, he can not function without permission from +Lee.  He was granted permission to serve as a priest only until the beginning of 2007.  His jurisdiction and his “organization” have not bee recognized by TEC.

# 17 “+Lee recognizes him as a Bishop.  He does not recognize him as able to serve in his capacity as a Bishop outside the geographic Province of Nigeria…”

All of this is getting vaguely medieval-scholastic (‘If a bishop consecrates outside his geographic Province and no Techie ‘hears’ him ...). Who cares about Lee’s cognitive difficulties? His cognitive dissonance is the real problem.

#17 Now you’re back peddling!

You said +Lee didn’t accept:

+Minns’ status as a bishop of the Anglican Communion.

I proved you wrong with +Lee’s own words, now your trying to change what you said. Too late, words spoke and only Admins have edit abilities. So did recognize +Minns as a bishop in the Anglican Communion. Come on and admit you were wrong before you try revise your argument for you were just hit with truth.

I don’t think Nigeria cares one bit what Lee thinks.

KAR

My words were quite specific.  Try as you might, you can’t prove me wrong on this one.  If you could there would be some serious inconsistency in +Lee’s position.

I said:

+Minns’ status as a bishop of the Anglican Communion.

I did not say that he doesn’t recognize him as a Bishop.  Even I recognize him as a nondenominational bishop - or perhaps a “Continuing Anglican”[sic] bishop, but not a bishop of the Anglican Communion

And I might add that ++Rowan agrees with +Lee and me!

So +VGR is not a bishop then?

#22 - Where did he say that?  Are you making it up?  I don’t think he has been clear. (If you mean he has not gotten a Lambeth invitation, there are other bishops who don’t get or expect Lambeth invitations.  I think the ABC has been coy as to whether he is a bishop, he has just been put in the category of people who are not the type of bishops who get invitations.  From the global south perspective, that category is problematic.)

Archbishop Rowan Williams welcomed Bishop Martyn Minns to the gathering of the Compass Rose Society - after Bishop Minns’ consecration.  You must be a member of the Anglican Communion to participate in this society.  Continuing Churches or bishops who are not recognized by Canterbury are not members of the Compass Rose Society - you must be a recognized member of the Anglican Communion to participate in this organization that supports the Archbishop of Canterbury.  Both Bishop Minns and Bishop Peter Lee attended that same meeting with the Archbishop of Canterbury late last year.

But this was before 815 blew a gasket and started suing everyone.  Ah, but we were so much older then, we’re younger than that now.

bb

You can go round and round with Brian T19.  He will make illogical statements, particularly about who is a bishop, a bishop of the Anglican Communion, etc.  Don’t expect him to admit he is wrong or to backtrack on what he has said.

+Gene does present a problem in that category.  I believe there is a distinction bacause +Gene is still eligible to receive an invitation while, according to Canon Kearin, +Minns is not. 

As for the Compass Rose Society, +Minns is listed as a member with his wife as the priest in charge of Truro.  Your list is outdated.

And if you need to have someone more aligned with your own views point it out to you, here is a quote from the essential article by Sarah Hey:

Now we delve into a bit of history—history which I have laboriously articulated over countless threads in the past years, [and which apparently no one cares about, except when they are offended over some perceived slight].

Were a bishop of an alternate Anglican entity within the U.S. to be recognized as in communion with Canterbury, that would be the de facto establishment of an alternate province within the region of the U.S. There would then be two Canterbury-recognized Anglican entities within one geographic territory. But that creation of a Canterbury-recognized alternate province of the Anglican Communion has not, in fact, occurred . . . yet.

http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/3096

#27 The last Compass Rose meeting was in November 2006, the consecration was August 20, 2006. You are in error.

Good for admitting +VGR is a problem, but you once again over-extended yourself on who is eligible, for we have a words published by Ruth Gledhill of one possibility, nothing stated on +Minns and the ABC only said he decided not to invite both. 

There are numerous holes on +Lees part for in licensing he gave a recognition that is not given to Roman Catholics thus the use of ‘abandonment’ cannon is actually inconsistent from his own actions of three months before.

Dioceses ordain for the church and they depose for the church. It has always been thus. If clergy leaving a diocese without dismissal can do so without consequence then one would have situations like, well, the situation we have in Colorado right now. You can’t be allowed to jump jurisdictions to escape the law or shop for a friendlier court. Duncan and his buddies can challenge the deposals but they cannot under the canons remit them. In the meantime they are supposed to recognize that these clergy have been deposed.

29, I think they will simply ignore them.  Much like the reappraisers do.  The reappraisers make such a fine art of ignoring the Canons it is amusing to hear them get indignant about what they see as other’s violations.

Br. Michael,

Looks like you are correct:

Pittsburgh, PA—A decision by Bishop Peter Lee of the Episcopal
Diocese of Virginia to declare 21 priests to have “abandoned the
communion of this Church,” will not have force in much of the
Anglican Communion or in a number of Episcopal dioceses.

“Because these Virginia priests are priests in good standing in the
Provinces of Uganda and Nigeria, respectively, the deposition is, in
fact, of no effect. Each is recognized as a priest in good standing
of the Anglican Communion. Therefore, we welcome them to exercise
their sacerdotal ministries in our Dioceses. Though we continue to
work and pray for a charitable disengagement, actions such as this
only make our relationships with each other more difficult and divided.”

It goes without saying that Bishop Lee’s action is without merit, null and void…..totally meaningless, and without effect.  Not to mention ridiculous!  Who cares about what he or any of his friends thinks?

#31—Yeapers ...

http://www.livingchurch.org/publishertlc/printarticle.asp?ID=3517

“The standing committee did not use a properly worded canonical request last winter when it sought consent to the election of the Rev. Shannon S. Johnston as Bishop Coadjutor of Virginia, a defect not considered serious enough by Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori to invalidate the election. ...”

People. You’re not paying attention.  Compass Rose is about money.  Lambeth is about tea and crumpets with the queen.  If you have money you can bring it to Copmpass Rose, but we wouldn’t want to offend the queen with too many African Bishops.  She is in her 80’s and gets confused easily.  See.  Now, wasn’t that easy?

Brian writes: “As for the Compass Rose Society, +Minns is listed as a member with his wife as the priest in charge of Truro.  Your list is outdated. “

No, sir it is not.  Martyn Minns was priest in charge/rector of Truro after he was made Bishop.  He attended Compass Rose after being made bishop, but still in charge of Truro (his “priest in charge"Just three days ago, Tuesday, July 31, 2007, after seventeen years at the helm, he officially finished his employment at Truro and the Rev. Dr. Tory Baucum has become the rector.  Tory will be installed in October with Bishop Minns officiating and Bishop Sandy Millar (Diocese of London) preaching.

Bishop Minns (as did Bishop Lee) attended the last meeting of the Compass Rose Society dressed as bishops and were warmly received.  In fact, photos were taken of Bishop Minns and the Archbishop of Canterbury (with Jim Rosenthall nearly losing his lunch).  One onlooker saw both Bishop Minns and Bishop Lee and said, rather loudly, “Oh, look, two bishops from Virginia!”

And that is the rest of the story.

bb

Bishop Minns officiating and Bishop Sandy Millar (Diocese of London) preaching.

Boy, that’ll make Martyn the flaming liberal in the room by comparison

The error in 29 is that the poster takes one province’s practices (in this case pecusa) and pretends or is ignorant of the fact that not all provinces have the same practices.  At least a number of African provinces, for example, do not require letters dimissory for clergy when the move from one diocese to another.  So the whole jurisdiction argument is rendered moot.

29. Dioceses ordain for the church and they depose for the church. It has always been thus. If clergy leaving a diocese without dismissal can do so without consequence then one would have situations like, well, the situation we have in Colorado right now. You can’t be allowed to jump jurisdictions to escape the law or shop for a friendlier court. Duncan and his buddies can challenge the deposals but they cannot under the canons remit them. In the meantime they are supposed to recognize that these clergy have been deposed.

This is just another bad spiteful act on the part of the Episcopal Church. TEC’s efforts to change its theology by its polity has created a crisis of conscience for many members of its clergy.  TEC should say “hey we want to do a new thing and we recognize that many cannot in good concsience go with us” and then let them depart with grace. Instead TEC is giving weigh to hating.
I for one believe that 815’s loss minimalizatiion reduction strategy of behaving in the most heavy handed litigious manner will ultimately backfire.  However, I believe that the Network is giving them a free pass.  30 second attack ads on the golf channel, the food network, fox news - and newspaper adds in local papers throughout the south and midwest.  A church cannot act Stalinst for long in the daylight.  Because most Christians (even Episcopalians) are opposed to practicing homosexual Bishops who left a wife and children - and are opposed to gay marriage - and could identify with parishes and dioceses that wish to depart a “Christian” organization that supports same - the Pr battle should be an easy one.  TEC should be paying a very heavy price for its actions.