Anyone looked at the numbers for New Hampshire lately? or the TEClub?

I cannot fathom how he could make such a heretical statement. The fact that we as Episcopalians are now allowing for the ordination and consecration of homosexuals is a terrible misrepresentation of Scripture and has dropped our membership greatly in TEC. We should realize the correlation.

They have eyes and do not see, ears and do not hear . . .

Gene seeking the limelight… again. He’s the perfect poster boy for TEC’s “all about me and what I want” philosophy.

I remember him saying how his election as Bishop had people joining the church left and right—and he knew it was true because he had seen it with his own eyes.

Obviously none of them wanted to be in his own diocese—which has continued to bleed members ever since then.

http://12.0.101.92/reports/PR_ChartsDemo/exports/ParishRPT_6302009125325AM.pdf

Sorry I meant to put in the link

Is Bishop Gene Robinson predicting the demise of the Roman Catholic Church? The Roman Catholic Church does not ordain women or openly gay people.

All I can say to this statement, “A church that does not ordain women or openly gay people - I don’t see a future for that,” is LOLOLOLLOL!

“Despite the ACNA’s grand words, the new organization is being built largely with assets belonging to the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada. It is unclear what Christian moral principles can be invoked to justify this,” said Kenneth Stiles, a Pittsburgh attorney and vice president of Progressive Episcopalians of Pittsburgh.

The primary assets would appear to the erstwhile parishioners of the Episcopal Church and the ACC.  I can think of one or two parables that might address the consequences of abusing them.

+Gene is definitely wrong here.  Look at the staying power of the Roman Catholic Church.  He underestimates the tremendous power of negative reinforcement on people.  Extremists always create groups for themselves - on both sides of the aisle.  [Edit] Despite the marginalization of their views, they still exist and at times, even thrive.

[Edited by Elf]

That wasn’t very affirming, Gene.

Robert (#9), that struck me also.  TEC could win every property lawsuit and they’ve still lost tens of thousands of members, and their families forever.  Either they think these people are simply without minds of their own and can be stolen from them (which implies a rather degraded view of their humanity), or they are so fixated on property as what defines a church that they don’t notice or care that people are leaving in droves.  Either way, they will have a rude awakening when no one is left in the beautiful buildings.

RE: “Anyone looked at the numbers for New Hampshire lately? or the TEClub?”

Yeh, RR—the future’s so bright for us, we gotta wear shades!  ; > )

Well he’s always been right so far!

Hey guys… just as a matter of fact… do you know of VGR is correct in claiming that no ACNA dioceses ordain women?  I was under the impression that some do and some do not.

The only female ordinations I knew of that did not occur at all were ordaining women as bishops.

ACNA does not have a prohibition on ordaining women.  It is a “may” not a “must”.  There is a prohibion on female bishops.

Thanks Julia.  I was virtually certain of that but wanted a second opinion.

I may be a minority on this, but this sort of bold assertion of things the writer MUST know are factually untrue—my mother explained this was called “lying”—is DEEPLY distressing to me.  In a way, more deeply distressing than the difference over sexual ethics. 

I really can “get inside” the skin of a reappraiser on the subject of blessing SSUs; and while I am certain he is mistaken, I can see how the mistake could stem from laudable qualities: kindness, etc.  But for TEC or Anglican leaders to tell lies about their opponents—stuff that is simply factually untrue—is just DEEPLY upsetting to me and very hard for me to understand.

It would really make me respect so much more the reappraisers here at T19 and elsewhere if I could see them sharply criticize their colleagues any time there is objective distortion of the factual record.  And I would say of course the same about reasserters as well.  A commitment to careful honesty and self-criticism could be something that could bring both sides together, at least at one point of contact.

I would still genuinely welcome anyone who could explain how VGR was actually correct in what he said.  I do not wish to believe he was lying—that’s just a very sad state of affairs.

I think that Alice (#4) is correct. He and Britney Spears aren’t too different. Like crack addicts, they have to have their media spotlight fix. VGR is a failing bishop of a failing denomination, but has shown remarkable ability to get his mug in front of the camera. (He’ll be doing a lot of this in Anaheim, I imagine.)

[Edited by Elf]

#6—The link doesn’t work.  FYI.

He underestimates the tremendous power of negative reinforcement on people.

Well, YEAH.. that’s why I converted.  My masochistic streak just wasn’t being properly fulfilled in TEC.

Extremists always create groups for themselves - on both sides of the aisle.

How many people need to be in a group to shed itself of the ‘extremist’ tag?  Couple hundred million?  A billion?  Or is it entirely relative to the judge’s POV?

The question is:  survive as what?

It will be a loose federation of protestant churches that have very different ways of understanding Anglicanism, except for the sole view that homosexuality is disordered.  This is their litmus test for understanding the gospel. 

Some will grow - those who don’t take part in the culture wars and have strong leadership.  Others won’t.  It might be tough to manage all those different bishops with different theologies, all with overlapping jurisdictions. 

but the test is:  will ACNA be funded by all the parties?  How will the different anglican sects discipline each other?

Alice, I don’t think that “its all about me” can be relegated to just TEC.  It is what I thought when Duncan got his wish to become an archbishop.

Despite the ACNA’s grand words, the new organization is being built largely with assets belonging to the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada. It is unclear what Christian moral principles can be invoked to justify this,” said Kenneth Stiles

It seems to me that the Church of England was ‘built largely with assets belonging to the Catholic Church’.  But no problem there…

To me, if VGR cannot fix his own diocese then he has no standing to comment on that with which he is not connected.
Deliver on your promises, Gene. Deliver on your promises.

From John Wilkins:

It will be a loose federation of protestant churches that have very different ways of understanding Anglicanism, except for the sole view that homosexuality is disordered.  This is their litmus test for understanding the gospel.

Um, substitute “disordered” for “holy” and you have EXACTLY what TEC believes the Anglican Communion is/should be. How ironic.

#’s 15, 16, 17 :

I completely agree with Jon – it would be greatly disturbing if any bishop issued a bald-faced lie like that – I’ll give VGR the benefit of the doubt here and assume that his quote was taken out of context or that he was misinformed and will soon issue a retraction.  Reminds me of my former bishop stating that same sex blessings don’t take place in his diocese.

I’ll go one further than Jon in #15 – does anyone know if the ACNA will allow a celibate gay priest to be ordained?

I seem to remember hearing that there was some sort of agreement that the ACNA members would not ordain any women priests in the future, with those women priests currently existing being “grandfathered” in. But what I heard wasn’t from an ‘official’ source.

#10 Brian from T19

“tremendous power of negative reinforcement.”  I just have to laugh but I also feel so sorry for you.

#21 says:  “It will be a loose federation of protestant churches that have very different ways of understanding Anglicanism, except for the sole view that homosexuality is disordered.  This is their litmus test for understanding the gospel.”

So what is your supporting documentation for that.  I did not find that anywhere in the organizing documents for ACNA, did you?  In fact, I didn’t find anythiing about a “litmus test” anywhere.  And all the organizers signed onto the same statements of belief in short order, without arguments or statements of “different ways of understanding Anglicanism.”  So I believe, sir, that your statement should have had the prefix, “In my opinion ...,” but that’s just my opinion.

I think (hope) that over time the ACNA will become a unitary province.  The fact that Uganda has ended its missionary status is a real plus, the Kenya dioceses plus some others starting the New England diocese seems a solid move, the four or five geographic dioceses are a goood start (added to the four ex-TEC), some REC and AMiA parishes appear to be already joinging local dioceses. 
I wish that CANA would declare victory quickly and form two (perhaps 3) geographic based dioceses and invite other local non-Cana parishes to join them.  The bishops could retain an affliation with Nigeria without the institutional baggage that CANA represents.
The AMiA has more institutional time in existence but they are still stronger in some locals than others - they could form dioceses where they would hold sway as in elect the local Bishop.
REC has even more time in existence but still areas where they could go ahead and form smaller geographic dioceses where they would elect a Bishop and be in a position to invite other parishes in.

One would think that the Archbishop could at some point in the future get a wall map of North America, colored stick pins, and different colored sharpies, and reach an accord on diocesan boundaries in the near future.  This would take some “horse swaping” and I am sure that some parishes would not consent finding themselves too different from neighboring cousins - but exceptions to general rules would be better than institutional quasi independence if this thing is too work.

Women are being ordained in the diocese of western Anglicans.  Gene Robinson didn’t do his homework or didn’t want to tell the truth.