The Rev. James Gibson has a good reflection on the trial at his Locusts & Wild Honey blog:
It was encouraging to read his words about the passion and energy of all those from the Dio of SC involved in the trial. Sounds like there has been much answered prayer in terms of grace and strength and wisdom for all representing the Diocese.
Praying for a good outcome, but above all that these matters would not distract from the preaching of Christ and making disciples…
14. Sarah - It is the strengths and fortitude of +Mark and his Diocese that I hope can come to, and strengthen ACNA.
There are few of us in ACNA who did not have primatial oversight from elsewhere, as I’m sure you are aware, either from an African church or the Southern Cone; those primates saw the wisdom in, and urged us to, create what is now ACNA.
Such primatial oversight was always intended to be there to cope with an emergency situation…in fact, the formal name for it was Temporary Emergency Episcopal Oversight, or something very similar if I recall correctly.
This is what sheltered our parish when we first established it in ‘06. We were very grateful to have it, but always looked forward to having our American coverage, as we now do.
If you are still a member of ECUSA, as it now functions, well…why stay? Surely, you don’t see any basic changes in directions taking place there?
[Just a reminder to commenters - comments suggesting, encouraging or instructing others to leave or join any church or denomination, howsoever expressed or alluded to are not permitted on T19 - please also remain on topic - thanks - Elf]
When the President declares “the border is more secure than ever”, maybe he is thinking of the northern border? For example;
After all, the President has refused Gov Perry’s invitation to see the southern border and admitted the other day in Seattle that he does not look at the news.
Good report Jeremy, many thanks.
Great to hear, a real answer to prayer.
Dr Tighe’s article linked at #13 above is excellent. I recommend it to everyone interested in what actually happened in the patristic church in situations like ours today.
“The theory of the inviolable integrity of diocesan boundaries has underpinned the statements of more than one or two Episcopal bishops in recent years, such as Peter Lee of Virginia and Neil Alexander of Atlanta. The result of the theory that “heresy is preferable to schism” and “schism is worse than heresy” has been the belief among influential conservative Anglicans that the faithful must put up with an unending stream of doctrinal absurdities and moral enormities”
Well said. I would go so far as to say that “heresy is preferable to schism” is a lie of the devil, that has brought great spiritual suffering to those who have believed that lie.
The lessons for the church today go into much more detail, however. Athanasius and other bishops engaged unashamedly in border crossing:
“As time went on, the whole Church became divided over the question, with bishop opposing bishop. Athanasius was willing, as the conflict intensified—in his case, as early as the mid-340s—to intervene unilaterally in dioceses whose bishops were Arians or compromisers. The historians Socrates and Sozomen, writing in the middle of the next century, record that he ordained men in dioceses whose bishops were tainted with Arianism to serve the orthodox upholders of Nicea, and that he did so without seeking or obtaining the permission of those bishops.
And he was not alone. Other orthodox bishops acted similarly.
Theodoret of Cyrrhus, yet another historian (and bishop), tells us in his Ecclesiastical History that a contemporary and collaborator of Athanasius, Eusebius of Samosata, traveled around many of the eastern portions of the Roman Empire disguised as a soldier, and where he found Arian or Arianizing bishops, he ordained deacons, priests, and even bishops to care for the orthodox and oppose the official bishops and their supporters. He names five bishops Eusebius consecrated.
Another bishop, Lucifer of Cagliari, wandered throughout the Mediterranean world in support of those who upheld Nicea. Both Socrates and Theodoret record his intervention in the divided church of Antioch. In 362 he consecrated the leader of one of the orthodox groups, the leader of the other, larger group having early on in his career appeared to compromise with moderate Arians. The uncompromising orthodox group had never been willing to accept him as their bishop, and the consecration embittered the break between the two and led to a schism that was not to be healed for over fifty years.”
Many today who are comfortable in their established churches will be filled with foreboding, and even anger at these lessons. But they have to be told. This modern liberal heresy is as pervasive as Arianism, and it will take just as many decades and just as much prayerful conflict to resolve.
The orthodox Anglicans, whether evangelical, anglo-catholic or broad church, should also realise that they stand in the shoes of their patristic forebears, and take comfort and guidance from them.
Relations with the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches will not make the slightest difference to the thinking of the Church of England bishops. They will give them a few nice-to-hear comments, but really not be concerned how they react.
I am not saying that is a good thing, just the harsh reality for orthodox (small “o”) Christians in CofE
Does this mean the ROC statement was a waste of time? Not at all.
The Orthodox Church, like all churches is responsible to their Lord to witness to the truth. They have done so. The CofE almost certainly won’t listen, but the CofE will have to answer to the Lord for that.
I think there is a lot of research showing that those who go into a relationship thinking it won’t last, act in such as way that they actually make it not last.
This news from the Illinois Court of Appeals about the Diocese of Quincy and the trial being over here in SC make for the beginning of a nice weekend.
I can’t speak for any of the other jurisdictions but the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) broke off all dialogue with TEC a few years back. The ACNA is the only Anglican body they currently talk with on any kind of serious basis. I recall former Met. Jonah’s very frank speech to the ACNA’s inaugural convention. It created quite a stir if memory has not failed.
I believe the statement I referenced is the latest on the subject, and it is, so to speak, direct from the horse’s mouth as we say.
I have just been watching Bishop Sutton [here thanks to Anglican TV] talking about the burgeoning ecumenical talks with the Orthodox, including the Moscow Patriarchate, as well as with the Roman Catholic Church and the various N. American Lutheran bodies. It appears that currently ACNA is the only Anglican body in fruitful ecumenical talks in the Communion and the only one the Russian Orthodox are taking seriously, and as I say the Global South will have to decide whether they will permit Canterbury to lead them into the dead end they have unilaterally made for themselves, or take direct control of those talks back from Canterbury and its rotting instruments.
Pageantmaster, #17, the Anglican Ink article says that the Kenyans will soon change their canons to allow female bishops, whereas, Dr Tighe #16, the Kenyan statement says they can do nothing without action from Synod. I rather suspect they will go ahead, but I have no inside information at all. The last time I checked on the issue, the Diocese of Egypt and North Africa continues to refuse female ordination in part in consideration of the very good relationship it has with the Coptic Church. I only wish that the CofE had been similarly observant of the wider Christian world over the past decades.
here’s the latest research on the real reason most of them are coming; after all, violence has been happening for years and this surge is recent.
true, no.1 however this culture ceased caring about consequences to children about 50 years ago.
Sarah, LOL! love it. The Diocese’s missionary reach into other states…. there is a concept! Perhaps…... in the near future but probably not while we are in the midst of lawsuit with TEC that could go on for several years if other lawsuits involving dioceses are any indication.
#2, the USS Vincennes arguably, and wrongly, thought Flight 655 was a fighter jet. Its helicopters were taking fire from Iranian gunboats at the time. It was a horrible error, but at the moment the missile was fired, it was a defensive move.
In the case of MH17, the missile was shot on offense under the mistaken idea that they were taking down a Ukrainian military transport. In fact, they originally thought that’s what they had shot down, and celebrated it. Once they realized they had shot down a passenger jet, they began insisting that they didn’t do it at all, that the plane was filled with dead bodies to begin with, that it was all a Ukrainian government plot to damage them, etc.
I realize that Iranians to this day think we shot down #655 knowing it was a commercial flight, but thinking doesn’t make it so. Russians, in their Soviet manifestation, did deliberately shoot down two passenger jets in the 1980s, although that seems not to be the case here.
How is this affair any different from, or any more censurable than, the shooting down of Iran Air flight #655 in 1988?
This really made this a good Friday, though nothing to compare with Good Friday. However, I expect that TEC will find yet another way to go at this. As ++Kate said, “We will never leave you alone.” For Progressives, there is no price too great to make a point.
There are masses of members of my church—TEC - that are ecstatic for the Diocese of Quincy. So very happy that—as St. Paul did—they are currently receiving justice from the secular courts.
Leave TEC? I’m having way too much fun. ; > )
So Sarah, can I assume this is finally your announcement you are leaving TEC and joing in with Mark Lawrenece?
No. 14: Agreed.
It’s interesting that - at least in this particular article - there is no reference to the consequences for children of this approach. Even if you approach this in purely secular terms, how secure will children be if the marriage relationship is constantly under review?
Furthermore, the marriage vow exists not for the times when things are easy but for the times when it is difficult.
“In sickness and in health” is not a platitude but a covenant
RE: “I am personally hopeful that, at 82 years of age, we will see DioSC welcomed into ACNA.”
As long as we are expressing personal hopes I hope that the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina does not choose to connect itself with ACNA, particularly as it already has the Primatial oversight from the Global South that it needs in order to maintain authority, accountability, and connection with the provinces of the Anglican Communion with which it desires to be connected.
There are wonderful people within ACNA, but the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina remains far stronger, more functional, and healthy without attaching itself to yet another organizational body.
And as long as we are hoping, I hope that the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina establishes missionary territories far and wide, as it did to such great effect a century and a half ago. I am very confident that there will be congregations in the lower half of Georgia, the eastern 1/3 of NC [as well as the northwestern 1/3 of NC], and various other locales that would be very grateful to be known as a part of The Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina, led by Bishop Lawrence.
There is clearly much for us in England to think about in the witness of St Athanasius…
I am following the case because I find many such things fascinating. I, too, have had the privileges of shaking +Mark’s hand and wishing him well - prior to the second convention that elected him.
We left ECUSA in ‘05, and are very happy in ACNA’s International Diocese.
I am personally hopeful that, at 82 years of age, we will see DioSC welcomed into ACNA. Of course, I’m also hopeful that the majority of the Anglican Primates will not attend Lambeth. One can dream, cannot one?
Well said Paegaentmaster! We deeply appreciate any and all prayers for us. Many here have also been praying since the trial began. Today is the last day. Thanks be to God!
#18 L F Nowen
“the context and the way the church was structured still does not provide a clear way forward in the ‘stay and fight’ vs ‘join Catholicism or Orthodoxy’ debate…”
Notwithstanding the inadequacies of leadership in North America and Canterbury, the majority of the Communion is faithful and looking after the orthodox Anglicans and there is also a considerable remnant in the Church of England notwithstanding an increasingly rotten and manipulative regime at Canterbury and an acceleratingly liberal House of Bishops.
No one has to make a decision to join Catholicism or Orthodoxy any more than the leadership of the Borgia Popes meant people had to leave Catholicism.
Do though, please give us your prayers.
The NYT article skillfully conflates two disjointed issues so as to paint a new picture of the ugly American and to embrace “good Christians”, ie, those who can be used to support the ideology of the NYT in the context of the current flood of illegal invaders to this country.
It is amazing: pick any country from whence the estimated 11 million illegal immigrants in this country come from, and here is what you will find. Each of those countries have rigid immigration policies and border restrictions. Yet apparently, we are not allowed that same luxury.
And because of that, the NYT can then equate protests against illegal persons being forced into one’s community to lack of compassion and trumpet the “good Christians” who are supporting the NYT ideological bent that there should be no borders in the US.
And of course, the NYT is silent on the 100,000 gang members who are estimated to have entered the US and are congregating in major urban centers like Chicago [Google Chicago and 4th of July and read about the gang related carnage that weekend].
All politics is local. Through control of the Russian press he’s got his people convinced, and that may be enough for Putin. So many pre-Glasnost echoes…
By the way, #13, if you are who I think you may be, both my engineer husband and I heartily approve of and endorse the effort to bring electricity to African villages with small solar plants. This is an excellent and admirable use of the technology.
For the larger picture, the energy storage problem needs to be solved. With a lot of bright engineers working on it, perhaps it will be.
Although coauthor of The Episcopalians, I am no expert on TEC polity, but I lean toward my friend and colleague Allen’s view, which was paraphrased as: “the denomination can advise its dioceses but cannot order them to do anything.”
He has seen solar rise, and he has seen it begin to decline in use in Germany, for instance, because it is not economically viable unless it’s heavily subsidized. The large installations are one thing (and they produce very expensive power), but the rooftop systems tied to the grid can be destabilizing in distribution networks because of the voltage variations and the lack of electronic tap changers. If I understand the discussion we had last evening, if our neighbor has a rooftop solar generation system feeding into the power lines, the voltage coming into our appliances can vary enough to cause trouble.
Thank you for the link to your helpful and interesting article Dr. Tighe. It gives me much to think about, but the context and the way the church was structured still does not provide a clear way forward in the ‘stay and fight’ vs ‘join Catholicism or Orthodoxy’ debate…
#7 and #8 Milton Finch
True, but just my suggestion, this is a time for calm and prayer for the Wonderful Diocese of South Carolina, and for Bishop Mark as he prepares to take the stand tomorrow. I have had the privilege of meeting him and in my view you are very lucky indeed to have him as your bishop and also to have the legal team you have. All of you are in my fervent prayers at this time, along with the Judge who seems to have had a very trying time, and with her court.
Remember also what the man with the sword said to Joshua [Joshua 5:13-15]:
Joshua went up to him and asked, “are you for us or for our enemies?”
“Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come”
It is the Lord’s battle, and we are just called upon to be ready to serve, and to stand, and to pray, and to trust. God bless you and grant you His peace.
Milton, I believe the reference you are looking for is Hebrews 4:12: “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”
What’s that thing about bone and sinew or muscle or something and the Word?
#16 Thank you Dr Tighe.
I believe that Archbishop Wabukala made it clear here today in response to press enquiries that there has been no change to the current Anglican Church of Kenya situation with regard to Women Bishops where the Constitution does not provide for them, notwithstanding some rather excited articles in ACNS, and that any change in this situation will be for their Synod after due consideration and consultation. In the meantime as he puts it “the status quo continues.”
As a leading member of GAFCON and the Global South, you are correct that many look to Kenya to show us how to consider and deal with these matters conciliarly, aware of our impact on one another in a global church, and of course on our ecumenical relations. Perhaps they will show us what the Church of England under its current liberal leadership is failing to demonstrate.
True, people are hurt. Imagine the thousands across this once great nation that have lost their church homes to the TEc group, only to watch those same buildings be sold to Muslims and the likes by said group because the objective was not so much to have a building for worshipers as it was to remove a group as punishment because of how they thought. I and my family have lived the pain of being worked out via intimidation and hatred. There’s very little family in it.
I doubt that Milton Finch. I met a least one married couple at the St. George trial who were sitting on opposite sides for the proceedings and they have managed to keep this disagreement from damaging what is really important.
I suspect that most people on both sides genuinely believe that their understanding of TEC polity is correct and there is no reason to privilege one side as “righteous” simply because of the view they hold on that question. I’m not even entirely convinced that those in the highest office know that they’re putting forward an erroneous argument with regard to polity. We’ve reached this juncture in large measure because most American Anglican scholars stopped writing about canon law during the 1960s.
Undoubtedly, my former employer did use equipment from your husband’s former employer, as it was the Southern Company for whom I worked.
But surely your husband, as a senior executive at a company like General Electric or Siemens, has seen the rapid rise of solar in the past few years, now the fastest growing power source in the US, increasing by almost 50% per year as of 2013. And this is not at the hands of individual solar home systems, as at least a quarter of the nations utilities are actively developing solar for major power generation including my former company.
And vonRosenburg is just doing his job. Poor fellow.
I’m really wondering if Judge Goodstein was able to see a real persecution of a righteous group of people by another group [Edited by Elf].
The attack upon Bishop Lawrence, on a sustained level of over a two year period probably shows the hatred and vindictiveness that is prevalent in the national “church” and the judge was seeing that for the first time. It was not a one and done removal…but instead, a tortuous attack upon a Godly man. A persecution by an evil entity upon the righteous.
He still does consulting in the field, and your former employer no doubt used equipment manufactured by his former employer.
Nope, he retired at the beginning of this year from a senior position with a very large multinational manufacturer of electrical generation and distribution equipment, with worldwide experience including Europe.
The account here, from the Diocese of SC, refers to a fairly sharp exchange between witness Dr. Guelzo and Mary Kostel. It doesn’t say anything about an exchange with the judge. However, here is TECSC’s blog about the trial. According to that account, TECSC had entered its “abandonment of communion” document against Bishop Lawrence into evidence. When DioSC’s attorney began to question question Chancellor Logan about the procedures used, or misused, to produce that “abandonment” charge, Ms. Kostel became very persistent in her objections.
Thanks, Pageantmaster (and Katherine), but given this:
is there any real basis for thinking that GAFCON and Global South dealings with Rome and the East will be any more fruitful or hopeful than those of Canterbury? I also think that the matter of this “development” gives the lie to all those people (whom I account earnest, but deluded) who look to African Anglican churches to assist in safeguarding and preserving “orthodox Anglicanism.” Cf.: 2 Kings 18:21, Isaiah 36:6 & Ezekiel 29:7:
From one ex-Utility Executive to another, please extend my best wishes to your husband. Unlike your husband, I am still very active in the energy industry, not retired. I suspect your husband has been retired for at least five years now perhaps even ten years and has missed the great transformation solar has made, price wise, in this country (and Germany) which began in 2010.
The acceleration of solar in Germany really began in 2006-2008 time frame when rapidly falling prices coupled with government incentives combined in a perfect storm to propel solar into a position of supplying 7% of the country’s total electricity supply in 2014. To say Germany has abandoned solar is quite inaccurate. Yes it’s true that the growth has dropped off by nearly half from the peak of 2011, but I liken that to solar finding a sort of equilibrium with other energy sources as solar prices stopped falling, leveling out a bit. Growth continues and Germany has hardly abandoned their goal of 35% renewable energy supply by the end of this decade (they are at 31% now).
In the US, price reductions were slower to kick-in the rapid solar growth that began in 2011 and continued through today. There have been some surprises in the regions suddenly experiencing solar growth, such as Georgia where I now live. Georgia Power committed to allow solar built as long as the cost was below their avoided costs. Now that the Nuclear Plant in Georgia has driven up the avoided electric costs above that of solar and suddenly demand for solar in Georgia is out-stripping the ability for Georgia Power to keep up.
In the US, solar produces a little more than 1/3 of 1 % of electricity, but Germany proves that (at 7%) solar is practical for power generation.
Finally, as far as birds, if you care about them, get rid of your cat, the number one bird killer, get rid of your car the number 3 killer, and finally, don’t patronize buildings with glass sides, the number two killer. Solar bird killing is way down the list, behind cell towers for your cell phone, and utility towers for the old-style utility wires bringing you electricity from that coal fired power plant.
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