Iran… check
Sri Lanka… check
Burma… check
Switzerland… DO WHAT?
It’s the smart ones who might go down this path who worry me; people like Ms. LaRose are fortunately addled enough to be easily detected and caught. “JihadJane” as her internet name? She might as well have called herself “NSApleaseeavesdroponmeJane.”
Accordingly medical schools are much more serious about the moral formation of their students than divinity schools. They are so because Americans do not believe that an inadequately trained priest may damage their salvation, but they do believe an inadequately trained doctor can hurt them.
This is so true; I have noticed that churches in our diocese are working hard to make churches “safe” (read: free of sexual abuse), but do nothing to help our youth avoid fornication, although this is one of the gravest of sins (1 Corinthians 6:18-20). We live as materialists.
#5 - because your remark doesn’t sound like something a Christian would say.
Britain is - was - a Christian country, the Dowry of Mary, and to mark the occasion of an invasion of this land by non-Christians with beliefs aggressively opposed to Christ with anything other than tears, is impious, particularly snarky comments to the effect they had it coming. Whatever else came with sinful, fallen Europeans to North America, Christ came with them, to the salvation of heathen souls here. Outside the Church there is no salvation, as I am sure you are aware.
Robert,
Is that sea salt or kosher salt you are rubbing in our wounds?
God knows Abp Tutu does not need me to defend him; but I have a proposition for you, #5, speaking of good works. Motivated solely by your faith, spend 20 years at immense risk to the freedom and safety of yourself and your family liberating the majority of your countrymen from an oppressive regime - all the while maintaining a commitment to non-violence, a respect for the humanity of your oppressors, and an abiding love and concern for their spiritual well being.
Then if someone accuses you of apostasy, I will be both bemused and offended.
Prayers are coming your way from faithful people in New England. Your Bishop is a beacon of light to many not residing in your Diocese.
Meanwhile, the United Methodist Church is planning on planting 650 new churches across the nation. I wish we had something like this. I think we have only planted 10 churches in this last decade.
Check out the UMC church planting website:
http://www.path1.org
After God made the creation he called it “good”.
After humanity was created God looked and called it “very good”.
(Genesis)
My take is that we are “very good” in that we bear the image of God in that we can relate, covenant, and participate. That is the image of God, albeit that we are now fallen. The image of God is always “very good”, but our sinfulness creates the need for salvation.
#3, why do you ask?
Bishop Mark Lawrence and the people of the Diocese of South Carolina are in my prayers.
#2,
You may well be right, but IMHO it’s still movement in the right direction. Reducing personal debt levels is crucial to the wellbeing of countless American families and individuals. And modest as a shrinkage of only 1.25% in personal debt is, I still welcome it.
Proverbs 22:7 remains an important warning:
“The borrower is slave to the lender.”
David Handy+
Re #4
Amen!
I prefer to put on my “I like the Episcopal Church” button.
In most of what is happening ... the Episcopal Church is certainly winning ... for Christ.
Decline in Rhode Island worship attendance between 1990 and 2000 for
Catholic - down 18%
Mainline - down 6.6%
Evangelical - down 5.5 %
Old numbers, but entirely consistent with the collapse in church attendance in New England.
Source: page 21 of
http://www.theamericanchurch.org/sample/State/RhodeIslandPowerpointSample.ppt
Not sure this qualifies as “good” economic news in the midst of a severe recession. Personal debt is down because money is not being spent, because people can’t get credit, and because people (prudently) are securing their financial positions because they are not confident about the future. Perhaps in any other context this would count as good, but now it’s a sign of how grim things really are.
Jerry Lamb has been begging for offers for these properties. Let’s see how the Court of Appeals rule before you get too far ahead of yourself. St Columba is a cardinal parish in our Diocese and I would wager that the ratio of legal professionals and their families make up at least 20% of the ASA. They will not be intimidated.
I hope those in the Godly Diocese of South Carolina are taking very good notes.
Intercessor
Prayers for Bishop Lawrence and all our dear friends in the wonderful Diocese of South Carolina.
“In fact all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.” 2 Tim. 3:12.
For what it’s worth, I asked Bp Wolf at a diocesan meeting after GenCon09—directly and publicly—why she hadn’t signed on to the Anaheim Statement. She said: “I don’t sign statements like that. I vote on resolutions and then let the vote speak for itself.”
Whether or not that’s really true, that’s how she understands and how she is representing herself. But that the gentle, astute readership of this site is not quite clear about where Bp Wolf stands (she consented to VGR’s consecration but she’s a Windsor bishop too?), might suggest that perhaps she plays a double-game. Of course, for some that would be her appeal ...
That should be “Water for crops”
AnglicanFirst:
In answer to your first question….No! The majority….I would say roughly 95+% will not stay in the buildings if TEc wins. I also know that LAmb has a person(s) already making inquiries to other congregations to see if they would be interested in purchasing these properties….and a few of them are perfect for bulldozing down and selling to commercial developers. TEc will just either sale them to developers or wind up with property that will not sale for a while. I also know that many of the other denominations know very well what TEC is all about, what they have done and are doing and these pastors of these other denominations are very good and close friends and brothers in Christ of our clergy and our bishop and they will not buy these properties from TEc. In fact they are digusted at what TEc and Lamb are doing.
IN regards to your second question and then your answer to it…it is true ...TEc wants to inflict a lot of hardship financially to these churches and to our diocese and lawsuits are the way to do it in a very depressed area where many are out of work thanks to no water or crops, and the highest unemployment rate in one state in the Union.
By the way…people have been leaving ECUSA for quite some time now….nothing new there and it will only get worse….they think they are winning but they are truly losing…they are just so wrapped up in their own sin they are blind to see it.
FWIW I believe the Continuing Indaba Process is not funded by the dioceses but by the Satcher Health Leadership Institute at the Morehouse School of Medicine. (See http://www.aco.org/acns/news.cfm/2009/5/6/ACNS4610).
There seems a lack of congruence between the stated aims of the Process and the Communiqué. The Process’ stated aims include, developing “theological resources to inform the process of seeking a common mind” with intended result of conversations being, “a depth of agreement and the clarification of disagreement resulting in positive missional relationships”. Yet the Communiqué states that, “dialogue cannot be about trying to make someone change their position but is about working together better to understand the fullness of our stories, affirmations and commitments”.
I can see the Process is not intended actually to form “a common mind” but to “inform” the “process’ of “seeking” a common mind. (This despite Indaba being in Zulu a “process of decision making”). Nevertheless “agreement” and “disagreement” can’t be identified without actually spending time reasoning together - that is persuasion must, at some point, be part of the dialogue for it to achieve it’s stated aims.
The Potemkin diocese is spending so much money that they had to move from their rented digs in Stockton into a mostly vacant building (former church) which they had gotten hold of earlier. If, under cover of law, they are able to get these properties back, the Potemkin diocesan authorities have told many people that they expect the parishioners of the congregations they’ve sued to return.
Yes indeed, in the context of its unrepresentativeness it is fairly representative.
On Friday February 26 we met at Lambeth Palace, where we prayed together in the Crypt Chapel and met with the Rev’d Dr. Philip Groves, who spoke with us about the Continuing Indaba project of the Communion. We were honoured with a visit from the Archbishop of Canterbury who spoke of his hopes for the Continuing Indaba process and listened as we shared insights from our time of dialogue.
I have somehow repressed all memory of the origin and function of the Continuing Indaba process. Is this the ecclesial equivalent of Bob Dylan’s “Never Ending Tour”?
[Comment deleted by Elf - comments encouraging, suggesting or instructing readers to leave one church or join another, however expressed are not permitted on T19]
“We affirm together that dialogue cannot be about trying to make someone change their position, but is about working together better to understand the fullness of our stories, affirmations and commitments.”
Well exactly, this is the point of Rowan’s Indaba project funded by a TEC priest. Meanwhile the unholy project continues apace: litigation, breach of moratoria in the rampant SSU’s and now a second gay partnered bishop, and now the attacks on the only growing Christian diocese in TEC, South Carolina. And as for Michael Ingham, well, it says it all doesn’t it?
Useless, manipulative Rowan Williams if allowed to continue to convene and fix the agenda of the Communion and its instruments will wreck it, as sadly now even the CofE is being wrecked in turn by the failure of his non-leadership. The only remaining hope as far as I can see it lies in the Global South.
Even if the ‘national church sponsored’ Episcopal Diocese of San Jaoquin wins a court victory and takes over the Anglican church buildings, will it be able to provide congregations to occupy and sustain all of those buildings?
My guess is that they would not be able to handle the financial responsibility that they are spending so much money in lawsuits to obtain.
So why are they going to court? My guess is that the lawsuits are being sponsored by ECUSA in order to inflict as much pain on the Anglican Diocese of San Jaoquin as possible.
What a travesty! Vindictive lawsuits will only drive people away from ECUSA, which can be a good thing, if they are driven toward CANA affiliated parishes.
I know the economists will contradict me, but that household debt decline number certainly qualifies as a silver lining in a very, very ominous stormcloud that is still hanging over us.
Please read the list of signatories again and you might get more interested.
Mombasa is in the Anglican Church of Kenya. Tanga and Central Tanganyika are both in the Anglican Church of Tanzania. Southern Malawi is in the Church of the Province of Central Africa. While Botswana is in the Anglican Church of Southern Africa, it is a separate country independent of South African politics. That just leaves Capetown as even arguably liberal, although it is really pretty conservative by North American or European standards.
I doubt that any of the dioceses in West Africa or the Sudan have enough money for this sort of thing. I would also guess that there aren’t any bishops from Nigeria or Uganda who would be willing to participate in any meeting including Bishop Ingham of New Westminster. Given those restraints, the participation seems fairly representative of African points of view.
The African bishops appear to be serving in the former South Africa province from whence came Archbishop Tutu. That province is the most liberal of the African provinces. I would have been more interested had the dialogue included bishops from West Africa, Nigeria, Uganda, Kenya, the Sudan, or Tanzania.
Thanks Statmann!
I am keeping Bishop Lawrence in my prayers, as well as, the Diocese.
I thought they voted to abstain from the governing structures of TEC. What’s going on?
Desmond Tutu is simply another apostate leading people astray. Sad.
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. Romans 7:15
This is one of my favorite verses:
For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:10
Why do good works? Not to earn our way into heaven. That would be insulting to our good Lord’s sacrifice. But rather, we are made to do them. It is like that pair of old jeans that fit so well (then fall apart the next time they go through the laundry). We recognize the naturalness of doing good works. However, we do not do good works naturally.
“No one is good but God alone.” Jesus
“No one is righteous, no, not one. No one understands. No one seeks God” Paul
Categorically and eternally true—no, wait—categorical and eternal truth.
However, as erroneous as Bishop Tutu’s anthropology is, he’s onto something in observing that human beings find stories of outrages and atrocities newsworthy. However, the reality is that merely human efforts to redress or forgive injustice are doomed because of the inherent deficiency of our sin. Without Jesus Christ, we are incapable of correcting the outrages and atrocities we commit. All they can do is sensitize us to the appalling crater in our natures that cries out, we think for good, but in reality for the living God.
All this talk of “marriage” in previous posts underlines why it is so crucial to pursue this avenue - rather than say the matter of orders, Bulls re orders, etc. If the Roman Church were truly to follow its own insights regarding the Nuptial Mystery (and JP2’s “Theology of the Body” has given this a huge boost - as have the writings of say von Balthasar and Scola), genuine “gestures” would thereby open up indeed!
So what’s holding them back ...?
Hi Robroy,
I sympathize with your plight, and you are right that there are several aspects to the incentive structure as it currently is. Your suggestion is a good one.
I don’t understand what I got wrong, but we seem to agree that coordination remains a pretty big problem. There are lots of reasons why (how much is a life worth? Who gets the bill?). I just don’t think the economists’ answer is a particularly revealing one, or the right one, and have good reasons to disagree.
Hi David: Waited too long on New Jersey and had to slip the stats into my comment on the PB’s talk at New Jersey convention. As for Rhode island: had a fairly tough time during 2002 through 2008 with Members down 15.4 percent, ASA down 19.4 percent, and Plate & Pledge (inflation adjusted) down 11.3 percent. Using these data I ranked the diocese at 69 out of 95 considered. For aging, did rather well in 2008 with 410 Infant Baptsms and 410 Burials. (Should receive the TEC zero growth award.) Diocese was well positioned in 2008 as to church size with only 16 of its 55 churches with ASA of 70 or less and none with ASA of 20 or less. As for money, the news is not as good with 34 of its 55 churches with Plate & Pledge below $150K in 2008. This means that every two “rich” churches had three “poor” churches to help. One more fact is that ACNA has no churches in Rhode Island. Statmann
I’m understanding from this that you are saying that this was a power grab. Isn’t this similar to the role assumed by the “Standing Committee” in the WWAC? It seems to me that what you have not stated but would agree with is that KJS has engaged in an abuse of power and misuse of her authority.
Well (and this is where my argument becomes confusing to some) I don’t necessarily think so. This is how I see it:
1. PB abuses de jure authority under the Constitution and Canons
2. No one objects OR objections are made and overruled
3. The PB’s actions are de facto put into law and she now has the authority denied her in the C&Cs;.
As you see above in Dr. Seitz+‘s comment, he believes that such a de facto assumption of authority simply can not exist. However, it does and there is ample evidence from those who are no longer members of the WWAC (++Duncan, +Schofield, +Iker, et al).
So simple answer: Is he abusing authority? Initially. Is it an ongoing abuse? No. It is a succesful coup/power grab.
Great comments so far, but I especially like Fr. Darin’s grimly whimsical allusion to Henry II and the notorious murder of ++Thomas Beckett back in 1170. Alas, Fr. Darin doesn’t seem to post as often now as he did when he was back in Iowa, but it’s good to see him chiming in here once again.
Like Senior Priest (#4), I admire the practical wisdom displayed in laying down the foundation for a possible legal defense with these savvy precautionary resolutions.
But I especially like that fourth resolution that our host, Kendall Harmon, apparently helped draft. As an ardent advocate of what I like to call “3-D Christianity” (but is more commonly known in Anglican circles as a “three streams, one river” approach), I rejoice in the ringing affirmation of the evangelical, catholic, and charismatic nature of Anglicanism at its best in their stated determination to uphold SC’s tradition as “a gospel diocese, called to proclaim an evangelical faith, embodied in a catholic order, and empowered and transformed through the Holy Spirit.”
Fantastic! That’s 3-D Christianity all right. Although I myself would prefer to speak of a faith that is both evangelical and catholic, and not limit the catholic element to upholding the classic catholic order in liturgy and polity. But it made my day to see that fine profession of the full Christian faith and life. BRAVO!!
David Handy+
“We are fundamentally good.” Archbishop Desmond Tutu
“No one is good but God alone.” Jesus
“No one is righteous, no, not one. No one understands. No one seeks God” Paul
Senior Priest, Thanks. That is very interesting indeed! can’t wait to see her paddle her canoe up the creek without a paddle.
She might be the “most conservative woman in the HoB” but she ain’t conservative. Here is some data on Bp Wolf that I garnered from Louie Crew’s website:
+ Voted to NOT endorse the Kuala Lumpur Statement
- Voted to insist on women’s ministries in every diocese.
- Signed A Pastoral Statement to Lesbian and Gay Anglicans from Some Member Bishops of the Lambeth Conference
- Voted for Blessing of Same-Gender Unions to be added to Book of Occasional Services (8th resolve to D039)
- Voted to recognize and affirm fidelity in relationships outside (D039)
- Voted to consent to the consecration of Gene Robinson as Bishop of New Hampshire
She also did not sign the Anaheim statement. Other than the Kuala Lumpur vote, she has a perfect revisionist record.
Oops… “does not apply to Anglicans or other non-RCs,”
Sarah—Exactly!
Chris Molter—While it is true that the RCs recognize the sacrament of matrimony among Anglicans, that is because they have always held that the sacrament is celebrated by the parties themselves, not by the church or ecclesial body to which the parties belong. Any man and woman who enter into an agreement to immediately undertake the obligations of marriage (as the Church understands them) are thereby married. Since the Council of Trent, the presence of a priest and the performance of a nuptial blessing is required for the regularity of any marriage in which one of the parties is Roman Catholic, but that is a disciplinary matter. The Council, of course, had no authority over the Church of England, which continued to recognize nonceremonial and even unwitnessed clandestine marriages until 1753. Thus, the RC disciplinary rule does not apply to Anglicans or other RCs, only the Catholic sacramental understanding of marriage as a bilateral covenant before God. Marriage was not affected by the declared invalidity of Anglican Orders any more than baptism was.
From the excerpt:
We are fundamentally good. When you come to think of it, that’s who we are at our core. Why else do we get so outraged by wrong? When we hear of any egregious act, we are appalled. Isn’t that an incredible assertion about us? Evil and wrong are aberrations. If wrong was the norm, it wouldn’t be news. Our newscasts wouldn’t lead with the latest acts of murder or mayhem, because they would be ordinary. But murder and mayhem are not the norm. The norm is goodness.
I, repectfully disagree. We were created good and we can still see good, but we have been so twisted by sin that we are no longer good. We want to be good, but we don’t know how.
Atrocities happen and they show how think the veneer of civilization is in the human race. Often our “goodness” or our “civility” are think fascades on our true nature.
We were not “made for Goodness.” We were made for God. God alone is what turns us from a people who want to be good, to a people who are good.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
Fr. Handy,
Funny how we Anglicans love drawing parallels between our current struggles and the Ring Trilogy. sometimes I think we know our Tolkien as well as we know the Scriptures (if not, to my shame, better!). Great stuff.
Jane Dixon vs Christ Church, Akokeek got a Federal Court to decide just what the SC Resolution says, “the bishop — or, in a bishop’s absence, the standing committee — is “the sole and final authority with respect to any dispute concerning the interpretation of the Constitution and Canons of this Diocese.” And the Court added in that the bishop of a diocese is the sole interpreter of the ECUSA canons in his diocese, as well. So Mrs Schori is up the creek on this one. Heh heh.
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