I am pretty sure that Iranaeus wasn’t there- if he had been, we would have read about the 1 man filibuster in ENS.
Pity is that there are no longer any bishops in TEC with courage enough to stand up during the GC debate and quote Iranaeus (or John Chrysostom or Athanasius). No more +Bob Duncans or +Jack Ikers. What passes for a “conservative” bishop in TEC nowadays is someone who arranges gay marriages but won’t perform one himself- only those who can “live with” (as one of them said) the new theology remain. (And note the celebratory comments from N Indiana by the revisionists now that Little has been replaced)
And we know for a fact that St. Nicholas was not at GC, as I am sure there was no headline “Local ERs swamped by TEC bishops with broken noses.”
There are also those who have a stake in market uncertainty. Certain globalist elites who would have preferred to see the UK remain in the EU experiment are no doubt keen on seeing the markets roil for a bit to both punish the UK and create some hysteria in the MSM to show others what might happen if they decide to leave. “Look, look, the sky is falling over the UK! Vote to leave and it will fall on you too!”
Never worked for The Street, but CM has it right.
The important thing for any long term investoralways to remember is that today’s price only reflects the mean of today’s concerns amongst millions of people and institutions.
Buy well-managed quality, and, overtime, you’ll be OK.
Who knew Irenaeus was at the last TEC General Convention?
As I learned long ago when I worked for Merrill Lynch, the thing markets hate above all else is uncertainty. If it were known indisputably that half of the United States would be destroyed by nuclear holocaust on February 28, 2025, the markets would not be affected. There would be a brisk market in nuclear hedges and new companies would spring up in fallout shelter construction and related businesses. It might be an actual bull market. But if it were known that sometime in the coming year the price of oil would either drop below $10/barrel or go above $150/barrel but no one could predict which, we would go into a recession because companies would hold back making any important capitalization or hiring decisions until they knew what was going to happen. Companies cannot plan or operate under conditions of uncertainty.
The current situation is just more uncertainty than markets can tolerate. Therefore, for the duration, there is going to be a ‘flight to quality.” The best possible thing would be to bring some degree of clarity to the situation as quickly as possible.
Pageantmaster, #26, exactly right. All of this hysteria is unnecessary. There seem to be very few business reasons for the panic; rather, it is the panic of the worldwide anointed elite at losing some degree of control.
Pageantmaster, may God bless Britain and all her people.
Thank you for your prayers, Katherine, and God bless you.
I think there is one other point worth making generally. There is a great deal of hysteria going on, but the worst of it outside the UK. The Japanese started it by having a sour sake moment and suspending trading on their stock exchange, and it has been particularly bad in the US. Bloomberg TV has been positively swooning and having an attack of the vapours. This really is not helpful, so to our American cousins I would say, settle down and don’t get so excited:
The position is that nothing has actually changed, and probably will not for a couple of years. The trading arrangements for the EU have not changed, and those businesses including those of China located here for access to the European market will still have access tomorrow and for a couple of years.
It is certainly not helpful that our political parties have just fallen apart, but that is what we do every so often - pull out the knives, and chuck out the failing ancien regime in politics. It is part of how we renew and refresh ourselves, and it it lifts the curtain on a part of our character which usually confines itself to stabbing one another in the back while smiling amicably at one another.
Already in a few days, the government machine has swung into action opening negotiations with other countries including those with whom we have not been permitted as part of the EU to negotiate reductions of trade barriers including the old Commonwealth and Australia/New Zealand. I was particularly interested to see that notwithstanding Obama’s threat that we would be at the back of the queue, that in fact there is no queue, and that through the EU, there is currently NO trade agreement between the UK and the US.
So, this is also for those who wish to take advantage of it, a time of opportunity. I think it would be good for us to have access to Australian raw materials, New Zealand meat, African produce and US oil and farm produce without trade barriers, something all these countries [Obama excepted] have now shown interest in.
As for Europe, we should keep a cool head. The delay caused by our changes in government will give the European states [not the Eurocrats] time to consider where their interests lie in their relations with us. Are they really prepared to forego their exports to us? Our cooperation in protecting Europe and the new members in the East from Russian aggression?
So, time for a cool head, less ‘emotion’ and speculation on what might or might not go wrong, or what could happen in the future. It probably won’t, and my bet is that for all the belicosity of the Brussels Euro-elite, there will be a deal agreeable to all sides, and perhaps take the opportunity for the European states to put things in order in Brussels, something many European nations are even more angry about than we are.
So - DON’T PANIC, but carry on….
#22 “Are people yet looking at how this will move through Parliament, and what Parliament will be required to do?”
Good point you raise. Interestingly, a Labour MP, David Lammy made this point on Twitter:
Wake up. We do not have to do this. We can stop this madness through a vote in Parliament
The reaction from all, including Remainers was outrage, so yes, in theory the Referendum was advisory only and Parliament remains sovereign, but a Parliament that went against the wishes of a majority of the electorate in a referendum would be undermining itself and bringing itself into disrepute.
As Daniel Hannan put it in response:
“Little people! You have been misled! We, your betters, will now act in your true interests!”
The only way I can see of reversing the position to which the British Government has committed itself of Brexit, is for there to be a General Election in which a party campaigning to not leave the EU won with an overwhelming majority, and even then I think it is constitutionally problematic: Parliament is sovereign, but only governs with the consent of the people, as Charles I and later the pre-Cromwellian Rump Parliament found out.
But who knows, perhaps the EU is like the Hotel California. One thing I do know is that an awful lot of people who do not normally vote engaged in this referendum and in England sent a very clear message. Anyone who ignores that will increase the cynicism and disengagement of much of the population with politicians and risk their ire, so while there is the constitutionally possible, it may prove politically disasterous to attempt it.
#23 “The Sun (UK) reports that a Devon butcher will begin selling meat in pounds and ounces again.
Mine was probably the last generation which was taught in school how to handle and calculate using imperial measures - stones, perches, rods etc.
The NY Times had a headline that England was sailing into uncharted waters. I guess after 23 years they lost their history and national identity.
An immediate reaction which made me smile: The Sun (UK) reports that a Devon butcher will begin selling meat in pounds and ounces again.
I hope the strong leader you need will soon take the reins.
Pageantmaster, I have read that the majority of elected MPs were opposed to leaving the EU. This must apply even more so to Scottish MPs. Are people yet looking at how this will move through Parliament, and what Parliament will be required to do?
Ah, Jay and Lynn can always be relied on to hit the nail on the head
“According to the document, the objective could be an association agreement between the EU and the UK. An association treaty spells out trading rules and other regulations between the European Union and a non-EU country. Other reports suggested any such agreement would not cover financial services”
Germany is not a friendly power for Britain; it does however have some common sense and Merkel has reined in the wilder comments of the EU Bureaucrats Juncker and his chums. Germany wants a continuing relationship and a deal with Britain.
This leaked document does show what the cunning German plan is: to try to freeze Britain out of the financial services area ‘passport’ so that banks relocate to Frankfurt, but to have a trade deal with allows Germany to sell BMW’s to the UK. Well they can dream on.
For those banks in the UK inclined to go to Frankfurt, they should remember that it is the UK which has protected them from the attacks coming from the EU, the latest of which was a proposal for a withholding tax.
There is no hurry - we should give notice on intention to leave when we have our ducks lined up: arrangements for alternative trade deals with other countries; an agreement in principal of our future relationship with the EU including for our banking and financial services sector. Germany and France export lots to the UK so we have a strong hand. Bullying from Eurocrats should be ignored.
We also need a strong team for renegotiation in place, and our strategy worked out and our support among EU countries ascertained before giving notice to leave. Europe needs the UK as much as the UK needs access to its common market, and the shenanigans of Juncker trying to limit control of our exit to himself and the original contracting nations is transparently manipulative, as the other countries are more pro UK, most of them relying on us and our military to give some protection with NATO against Putin’s aggression. We need a strong leader who has a program for Brexit and will have the force of personality, experience and stomach to negotiate firmly. The problem at the moment is that Cameron it appears is doing a Gordon Brown - hanging on to influence the succession and for vindictive reasons with his potential successors.
We need to keep our nerve, not be hurried or bullied and be wise.
Prayers for the vitally important ministry of FRRME, and for Canon Andrew White as he faces this challenge.
#15 Fr Tee
Well, on the negative side:
“the departure of Scotland is very likely and would mean that we were no longer the United Kingdom. New name, anyone?”
Well, it is for others to judge whether the departure of Scotland would be a negative, but we do need a reality check: Ms Sturgeon, the Scottish First Minister of the devolved parliament has claimed that she will be talking to EU officials and other countries about arrangements to enable Scotland to remain in the EU or join independently in some arrangement. She has also suggested that the Scottish parliament could block Westminster Brexit legislation and an EU deal. There are a few problems with Ms Sturgeon’s ideas which the BBC has been trumpetting:
1. Scotland is unviable as an independent state without someone subsidising them to the extent that the British taxpayer props them up. With the departure of Britain, it is unlikely that the EU or any other country will be inclined to prop them up, given that their economy is in an even worse state with the collapse in oil prices, than it was at the time of the Scottish Referendum.
2. A number of countries would not agree to a UK region joining or remaining in the EU independently of its sponsoring state - Spain would not want to set a precedent for Catalonia, and Italy would not want its northern independence-minded province taking advantage of this route.
3. The Scottish Parliament is a devolved parliament from Westminster, and could not block Westminster legislation, nor does Westminster require the consent of the Scottish Parliament.
4. Neither the First Minister, nor the Scottish devolved Parliament can call a new independence referendum. That is the prerogative of the United Kingdom Parliament in Westminster.
Methinks the lady doth blether too much.
“the vote has made me aware of how alienated our young adults are from politics”
Depressingly true - I was speaking to a youngster today who explained that she and her friends had not voted because none of them knew what Brexit was about and they knew nothing about politics. I really did not know what to say.
#16 “on a more serious note, which hopefully Kendall will leave in, the weather has been APPALLING. Rain, day after day”
Wimbledon starts tomorrow.
Jim a closer run thing was a proposal to require all restaurants offering olive oil at the table to do it in small individual packs rather than the traditional jug or similar. Imagine the uproar in Greece and Spain. It was completely silly - something to do with tamper-proof nozzeles - but put forward on the usual health grounds - and only reluctantly stopped after enormous pressure.
There are a lot of stories about EU silliness that we are assured are false, but this one is real. You can see the story here:
I guess the one thing about the EU that has always stuck in my mind is the EU proposal a number of years ago to enact a regulation that would have banned the use of incense in churches as violative of air quality standards (don’t know whether it ever took effect). Any government that has that much power to pass silly regulations is a problem. (Of course, it now happens in the U.S. literally every day.)
Fr. Terry, you could still be the United Kingdom of England and Wales, according to the vote maps. And Scotland might find itself unable to gain entrance to the EU (if it is still in business by the time Scotland applies). There are financial commitments to be met, which as I understand it might be a strain for Scotland without the backing of the UK.
It’s actually bright and sunny up here in Durham, Fr. Terry, though I hesitate to ascribe this to Brexit .
It’s the first time I’ve felt much sympathy for Jeremy Corbyn. Like many on the Left, he has always disliked the EU, but he was out there making the case for Remain, yet is now being blamed for something which others mishandled.
I do think Remain has one strong argument: the Leave camp made pledges (on NHS spending, for example) that they’re now trying to walk back; they either need to put up or admit that they misrepresented themselves. It’s not grounds for holding a second referendum, but a little honesty to those Brexit voters who believed them (not all of us did) would be nice.
There are also no grounds for treating anyone from the EU currently present here as deserving of immediate removal (there have been scattered reports of incidents). Anyone who came here under freedom of movement deserves an opportunity to obtain residency under some sort of grandfather clause.
And, on a more serious note, which hopefully Kendall will leave in, the weather has been APPALLING. Rain, day after day. A fitful burst of sunshine followed by a tropical style downpour. We have Donner booming us into wakefulness at night followed by Blitzung lighting up our rooms as in a horror movie. Is nature in sympathy (if so with whom) or warning us or what? Note to U.S. visitors to the (for the time being) United Kingdom: bring raincoats.
Well, on the negative side:
- the departure of Scotland is very likely and would mean that we were no longer the United Kingdom. New name, anyone?
- the vote has made me aware of how alienated our young adults are from politics. A big campaign by Facebook and others to encourage registration to vote did bring in something like 2m new voters. Where were they before? Footballing hero Rio Ferdinand (aged 37) told the young it was so important to vote that he would be voting for the first time. Ahem. Now there is a hue and cry to re-run the referendum. That’s not how politics works. This ungrownupness is embarrassing to behold. Guys, there are some things that require you to do more than click on your laptop.
Yesterday’s front page of the International New York Times reporting on the result referred to the British as flinty. I rather liked that. Certainly the institutional pressure to vote the other way was huge: even Obama, IMHO disgracefully, told us during a visit how we should vote. (Can you imagine a big Brit politician going to DC and telling the American people how to vote? He would be run out of town.)
But oh dear there is going to be a lot of turbulence economically and politically: our PM has left, the leader of the opposition is on the ropes, and some MPs are talking about refusing to vote for exit legislation. A vacuum of leadership looms and that is always worrying.
The chaos of the first roughly 72 hours of Brexit was completely predictable. For weeks there has been a steady drumbeat that Brexit would mean The End of the World as We Know It. At least one overheated claim had it that it would lead inevitably to another European war. Now add in the shock when all the confident predictions proved in error. Whether you buy into the group think, or are certainly aware of it, the panicky behavior is inevitable.
What happens next week, next month, and next year is a separate issue.
The small part that is highlighted in this post speaks to how order will be maintained, yet the headlines screams “Reckless.” The chattering class needs to calm down.
As long as there is mankind, there is a yearning for freedom.
My guess is that many voters thought that they had lost control of their government and hence their future. Many folks over here feel they same way.
The Common Market seemed like a good idea. The EU turned out not so well. It seems to me that imposition of regulations from over the water without the consent of the governed is contrary to the English tradition of freedom going back to Magna Carta. We had a revolution here over similar matters in the eighteenth century. I suppose most British voters did not consider it in quite this ideological way. However, it seems clear that the majority were frustrated and unhappy with EU bureaucracy.
#11 We have to comply with US regulations if we want to export cars to the US [well unless you are German] so we can probably live with that, but the more serious long term issue is that we have rejected a future as subjects of a Germanic super-state which is where we were being led and where we did not want to go.
We are bigger than Norway or Switzerland for that matter, and Germany needs our export market, so I think the future will depend on us getting our act together and engaging in serious negotiations at state to state level; Council of Ministers level.
The Eurocrats, that appalling failed Belgian politician Juncker and the pompous Donald Tusk would like us to just disappear after they ‘punish’ us, and leave them to rebuild their super state, but that is not going to happen. Pandora’s box is open, and I think we are in for a European reassessment in other countries, and if that brings back something like the original trade area of the Common Market, much the better.
Anyway, it is too early to say, but on reflection, I am very content with today’s result, and I think we are probably not interested in any more ‘fear’ - Project Fear has been rejected - though short term we will probably have a few waves to ride through the disruption internationally and the panic of the clueless teenage barrow boys and girls who are employed to trade the financial markets.
Always assuming that we don’t simply exchange our current status for that of a member of the EEA (complying with EU regulations, but with no say in their drafting, a la Switzerland), Pageantmaster.
I was really stunned by the lack of attention to Spain—their stock market had its largest one day drop IN HISTORY EVER (12.4%) and as you say they have the first (EU) election post-Brexit on Sunday.
What just happened to Cameron, a Tory version of a RINO, ought to be scaring the heck out of Ryan and other establishment GOP types in Congress.
Jim the Puritan,
Substitute Hillary for the Queen. That’ll teach ‘em. Or worse, give ‘em Michelle.
Oh, and make ‘em go to the back of the line where they can see where he leads from.
I don’t think many Leave supporters voted against Cameron because a Tory government gave them Labour policies (unless you mean on the cultural front).
The most pronounced Leave votes were recorded in the Midlands and the North (where I live) among populations who still identify with a pre-Blairite and non-multicultural Labour Party. UKIP has been able to rally them up to now precisely because of their frustration with the status quo, but that party may be close to a point where it will have to articulate substantive economic and social policies. If what UKIP proposes is of a neo-liberal flavour I doubt if they will hold onto that constituency for long. Such voters would probably feel most comfortable with something like Poland’s current ruling party, Law and Justice, which combines cultural conservatism with the sort of economic interventionism which I imagine that you would deplore - not so different from 1890s American Populism. No such party currently exists in Britain.
It’s ironic that Cameron’s surprise victory last year obliged him to honour his pledge to the Eurosceptics in his own party and, in so doing, ended his career. Had there been a hung parliament there would have been no referendum. Instead, the 2015 victory served as the prelude to a rupture in the Tory Party unknown since the days of Joseph Chamberlain. It took Cameron to achieve what Margaret Thatcher never could.
Comment removed since it was off topic on this thread which is all about Brexit-ed..
#2—Isn’t that what the pundits say about anything they don’t approve of? According to the political class I am a bare-footed, uneducated racist. They say it because it fits their narrative. What they are really concerned about is anybody out here in the flyover challenging their power and money. The reason Trump is the Republican nominee is because we voted for Republican candidates and got the same old Democrat policies. I am not in Britain but my perception is this was, at least in part, a vote against Cameron. Britain voted for a Tory government and got Labour policies. Some of us are tired of the political elite feathering their own nests at our expense and then doing things we don’t like. My guess is once the British hating Obama is gone Britain (and America) will fare very nicely.
Least of all,this vote hardly seems to be an act of solidarity even with our friends in places like Greece
Really??? Greece owes 320 billion euros in debt, much of it to Germany. It will never be able to pay it back, even as the lenders vow to make the Greek pips squeak by pressing harder and harder. Greek friends tell me that this will encourage a Grexit and new life in Greece free from the Euro shackles and German-led domination of the European project.
By the way nobody seems to be noticing that Spain has elections again this Sunday and that Podemos, the left-wing party, is leading in the polls, with a vow to revoke or severely curtail the Lisbon Treaty. It is this treaty with its drive towards a federal European state which finally snapped British patience. Perhaps Spain next?
Britons never will be slaves.
I’m rather surprised myself. Only the second vote of my life that felt as if it counted for something (the first being the Diocese of Pittsburgh in 2007 ).
I hesitate to speak for other Leave voters, but it’s difficult to know which is more irritating - Mr. Farage’s self satisfaction (having started the night predicting a narrow loss) or the chorus of Remain laments for whom the world has apparently ended (I assume Anna Soubry has yet to lose a family member, as I can’t otherwise imagine how this can be the worst day of her life).
Just to be clear, Leave’s rosy promises are almost certainly as fanciful as Remain’s predictions of the Apocalypse. The next few years will be bumpy, however things turn out. For some of us, at least, the vote had little to do with greater prosperity or more secure borders (we still have border controls for goodness sake!), but everything to do with sending a message to Brussels and Strasbourg that it’s time for a dose of subsidiarity.
The worst thing that could happen now is for the chattering classes (of which I suppose I’m one) to continue putting out a cosmopolitan narrative that uneducated, emotional voters were duped into making an ignorant choice “against the advice of all the experts.” There are plenty of emotional types on the Remain side, after all, and, in any case, this sort of language is a gift to those forces of whom the liberals claim to be most fearful. This isn’t about the fitness of an individual for political office, but a policy decision that can by no stretch of the imagination be viewed as immoral, even if it might be considered unwise.
I remain stunned by this decision. The Lord be with them.
The E.U. should have passed a Dennis canon.
Too bad the leaders of the Episcopal church could not show such charity to those who “voted to leave.”
52-48, the margin of the last polls, but in the reverse direction. Pass the popcorn, indeed.
Prayers being said, Pageantmaster. I do think this initial hysteria is overdone. My feelings about this are much as you have described, and I am so pleased that my British cousins (both politically and in blood) have taken the step to reassert their control over their own affairs. Well done, UK!
Political leadership here, as well, may be shuddering.
Well done, UK!
Watch out for the hystrionics and whining from the liberal elite to go full flow today - Keith Vaz did a hilarious blubbing act an hour ago. More to follow. Sit back, open up the popcorn and watch it all happen, and do please pray for us.
By the way, Katherine, I wouldn’t like you to think that this was all about immigration, working class disatisfaction and older voters or the desire to give the EU and UK political class a good kicking.
There is real anger and frustration about belonging to a club where it appears we just pay but have no say, and where the incompetance, waste and corruption is just unbelievable, topped off with a class of officials who are officious, rude, arrogant and out of touch. It is a monstrous planned state that they seek controlling all aspects of our lives.
Those I have known who have worked in Brussels have reported back on just how rotton the whole thing is.
That is ultimately, for all the ‘economic arguments’, experts from Obama to the head of the IMF [a French lady] who have threatened, warned, and prophesied that the UK will fall off the edge of the world, the reason why the decision has been made today. It is not an abberation, down to the weather or because people are stupid, ill informed or deranged. We have been in an abusive marriage, one in which there is no future other than total submission, and that ultimately is why for the short term pain there will no doubt be, there is also a sense of relief around.
Of course whether we can actually leave or whether like the Hotel California we can check out but never leave, remains to be seen.
Well, it appears that something rather remarkable has happened Katherine. The BBC now reports that Remain cannot make up sufficient votes from the remaining undeclared results to win. The predictions are for something like a 52/48 per cent win for Leave, though final results will take a few hours.
There is market volatility from the Far East and Tokyo, and the London Market is about to open, but the volatility in the futures markets have shown how deeply unsettled the markets may be today. It wasn’t in the Plan, so I expect it will take a bit of time for people to really think about what it means, which is immediately, not a lot. Things will continue as usual in the EU, while an orderly exit is negotiated if all sides are sensible.
Meanwhile there is considerable shock in the UK and EU political class. The reaction from Brussels appears to be uncertain whether anger or fear predominate, and the impact for the EU project could be serious indeed. Britain is one of three big net contributors to the EU budget [remarkable considering how little say we have in Europe] and most of the rest of the 26 countries are takers. That is a big hole in their budget, so they may have to reconsider handing out money to Italian mafia olive businesses in subsidies, and charging private jets, luxury hotel rooms, toys and chocolates to their expense accounts.
Meanwhile it is a different world from yesterday for us, and one which will take a bit of getting used to and some hard work, but there are definitely some problems which will be easier to solve, and it is looking like a bright new day.
Now, if this were the USA, and London were Chicago, we’d be thinking that Chicago was waiting to see how many Remain votes needed to be manufactured. I hope that is not the case in London!
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