Sorry, the diagnosis *is* right on.
I love the tone of this article. It’s clear, committed and not histrionic in the least. The diagnosis in right on. Well done, Mainstream. Thanks Kendall for passing it along.
Another metaphoralist objects to Tradition and Church teaching ... at Easter! Ghandi was correct.
I listened to Ehrman on NPR as part of their annual “Easter is a fraud” bash. When pressed on the resurrection he said that history deals with what really happened and the supernatural is outside history. In other words history only deals with naturalistic material worldviews.
A supernatural event, even if it actually happened, is outside history he says. I say BS. A supernatural event is as much a part of history as was my taking a shower this morning. There may be a problem of proof, but ruling it out by definition is dishonest.
As for the resurrection we have testimoney of the observers. How do you know that I took a shower this morning? You only have my testimony. Why is one testimony valid and not the other? And Jesus’ resurrection is better testified to than my shower.
Thanks, Jeff. That makes a lot more sense.
Barbara, a quick glance at the congregation’s chart shows it has 240 members and an ASA of about 70 in 2012, down from an ASA of 110 in 2002. I can’t see where the 300 figure would have come from.
Chart can be viewed for the next 24 hours at: http://pr.dfms.org/study/exports/1417-4049_20140416_05312276.pdf
I’m having trouble with the math. How does “a parish of 300 families” have “a little over 100 parishioners, and 60 to 70 on a Sunday.” All I can figure out is that maybe they have 300 families (pledging units) on the members database, but only 100 individuals from those 300+ families actually attend the church and usually only 60-70 on a given Sunday. If that is the case, she could grow the church substantially just by getting those non-attending persons to get involved and become active members. Why are they on the books but not in the pews?
The MSM are having their annual *outrage* that new ideas (such as what Professor King has claimed- i.e. that Jesus was married) are not being lovingly accepted and affirmed by Christians. Please read carefully and do not miss his basic claim which is that yes the Christian Church has denounced certain old texts as heretical. In fact, Christians have been battling heresy since the time of Apostle Paul. The best sentence in the entire article:
“So much of what is presented as modern biblical and theological scholarship is an effort to destroy the very idea of orthodox Christianity and to erase all distinctions between orthodoxy and heresy.”
There is the crux of the article. It is not that current biblical scholars think this fragment is genuine (most do not) it is the MSM that presents the ideas of a few as representing ALL current biblical scholars. This is the last sentence:
“It tells us a great deal about modern scholarship, however — and that is the real message of this controversy.”
Actually this tells us more about the MSM and their distortion of what current biblical scholars have concluded by accepting as representative the conclusions of a few scholars while ignoring the many scholars who have concluded that the fragment is not as nearly old as some suggest and that it contains nothing that overturns orthodox Christian belief.
Couldn’t really tell much from the article, but I did laugh at this line:
“[...]I remember looking at our priest and thinking that I could do a better job. Laughter would be the appropriate response to that.”
Looks like an excellent read. Here’s hoping that the people who really need to read it actually do.
As a Holy Week aside, Leo Depuydt, the scholar convinced that the fragment is a forgery, is an advocate of the date of March 18, 29 AD as the date of the Crucifixion. This is based on the tradition of the church, a careful analysis of the astronomical data and an analysis of early texts. The dates of 30 or 33 are so popular now that it is often forgotten that the overwhelming tradition of the church until the twentieth century favored 29.
Then, his bishop need only recognize his decision to resign from Holy Orders. Mr Pemberton would know that this is the natural consequence of his actions. To me, this is very simple.
“And a lot of us are rejecting other people’s rejection of us as Christians. ...”
I reject that.
When NBCSN showed this today they showed just an excerpt and I would not have known that he read John’s gospel (because that part is left out in the NBCSN segment) unless I read the newspaper accounts of the service.
As a result I went hunting for the whole speech and here it is.
The crowd which cried “Crucify him!” was almost certainly not the same one which welcomed him into Jerusalem. His enemies had arranged for a quiet assassination. Matthew 26:3-5:
“Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiphas, and plotted together in order to arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him. But they said, ‘Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people.’”
In the end, they did it during the festival days of Passover, but at night, when the populace was asleep. John mentions that when Judas left the Last Supper, “it was night.” (John 13:30) The arrest was made in the dead of night, and the “trial” was held quickly, followed by denunciation to the Roman authorities. The overwhelming power of the Roman army would stifle any popular objections, so that morning the populace discovered a fait accompli. The execution had not happened yet, but there was nothing anybody could do about it. It seems reasonable that the crowd before Pilate was handpicked by the religious authorities.
LOL @ Archer! I was thinking the exact same thing when I clicked on the comment button.
An interesting take on this, and much of it rings true to me. I was in India in 2006-2007 when there were bombings within 50-100 miles of where I lived—and then there was a small bomb a mile away, but that turned out to be a personal business vendetta.
My personal observation was that many Indian Roman Catholics were converts from families which had previously been high-caste, whereas many Protestants (including Anglican) had previously been low-caste. I wonder if the same was true of the Muslims during the reigns of the Mughals. It is true that most Muslims i saw lived in poverty—like huge numbers of Hindus and Christians. Some of the dalits, that is, untouchables, today are converting to Buddhism, and in the city where I lived there were dalit riots in which people died. A lot of these conflicts are ethnic as well as religious.
Certainly I cannot favor a Hindu state, just as I could not favor a Muslim state. The problem is that the Congress Party is a soft socialist holdover from the Nehru days and it doesn’t seem to know what to do about economic problems or about caste and religious problems either, although it has made some commendable efforts.
That is all.
Jeremy Pemberton is indeed ordained (diocese of Durham, 1981). At an earlier point in his life he was a committed Evangelical, trained at Ridley Hall and worked for the evangelical Church Mission Society. He led a friend of ours to Christ. Something has changed since those days. 1 Cor 10.12.
And also to you, Kendall.
Many thanks AKMA for the correction, blessed Holy week to you
Very interesting short article by Justin Terry+. While scientists do study a disordered world, I have always wondered…. Why then do so many in the natural sciences see the intelligent design of the world and hence believe in a Intelligent Designer? For many scientists, this is the God of the Old and New Testaments. It would seem that if progressives are correct, then many in the *humanities* should be believers. Yet this disciplines tend to be the playing field of many atheists and agnostics. While scientists study a disordered world, I really do believe that the heavens declare the Glory of God…. and so do many scientists including more Nobel Laureates than you might expect.
“Pemberton is also a lay clerk at Southwell Minster in neighbouring Nottinghamshire, which comes under a different bishop, and there he does operate under a licence known as the bishop’s ‘permission to officiate’.”
I need help with the English here. Is Mr Pemberton in Holy Orders? If so, then by his actions he has made a de facto renunciation of those orders - something that his bishop can affirm. If he’s a lay person working as a hospital chaplain, then I don’t know what his bishop can do.
I think you may mean “Robert Cottrill” — Robert Cargill is the archaeologist.
Too bad, but our prayers and thanksgiving for the sacrifice of the true congregation of St Johns who were prepared to fight for the property. By so doing, they gave valuable public testimony of what they believe.
Now that the liberal rump of Dio San Joaquin have succeeded at law, the faithful Anglicans will have to establish themselves somewhere else, which they can do. The rump are left with an empty property and the maintenance costs - no doubt the building will eventually be sold to a secular or Moslem group as TEC has done in the past. Very sad, but the real church is not tied to buildings.
Yep. The liberals in CofE will push the boundaries because they do not fear any action taken against them (although possibly in Dio London they might).
Contrast with the situation recently in Anglican Church of Australia where all the bishops including liberals told one of their own not to try it.
The issue is not legal sanctions - they exist - but whether those charged with the pastoral care of the church are prepared to use them.
Meh. What does the blogger Cranmer mean by this in practice? Liberals and orthodox would use the same language.
What a strange article (but its Andrew Brown, so I should have expected no less).
Andrew Brown writes:
“Conservatives have already made it quite clear that they would attempt to sue any bishop who was, in their opinion, soft on gay marriages.”
Does anyone know who these “conservatives” are? All the news reports I have seen are quoting figures from the liberal left like Giles Fraser who earnestly assure us that some (unspecified) conservative wants the church to use the clergy discipline measure against a soft bishop. I am not saying they don’t exist, just that finding someone prepared to name one is not easy.
In any case, it is difficult to believe that the vast majority of bishops in CofE are capable of disciplining gay clergy who marry. Apart from anything else, that would require the bishop to take *coherent* and *decisive* action. That’s a big ask of most CofE bishops.
Based on past performance, there is one bishop who might. And he heads the largest See in England. So he might actually take some action that avoids the CofE becoming a complete laughingstock in the eyes of the people of England (as opposed to being mostly a laughingstock, which it is now).
We know from the New Testament that gnosticism had already reared it’s ugly head, and is with us today. I read last night that this fragment is most likely an 8th century riff off of The Gospel of Thomas, and not particularly well done at that. Of course, the media is playing it as an “ancient” document, as though that means something.
Kendall, as always, thanks for the link and your support and encouragement of all of us who post at Lent & Beyond.
In addition to the Lent & Holy Week “blog header/ sticky” post which you’ve linked, I’ve just done some (long overdue) work to reorganize and update our index of most of Lent & Beyond’s Holy Week entries from recent years. They’re now listed day by day.
It’s still a bit rough, but I hope it’s useful.
May the Lord grant you, Elizabeth, your family, and all TitusOneNine readers a blessed Holy Week and Easter.
Refreshing honesty from a prominent journalist. The truth is, of course, that there is no such thing as a naked public square, as Richard John Neuhaus pointed out long ago. “Nautre abhors a vacuum, and if Christian values are banished from the public square, something else will take its place. You can call the new replacement “secular humanism,” or “pluralism,” or whatever label you prefer, but the fact remains that another ideology has replaced Christianity as the dominant worldview everywhere in the Global North.
The outrageous ouster of Mozilla Firefox’s co-founder is a blatant example of what I like to call “Leftist Fundamentalism.” I will never forget what my esteemed mentor and doctoral supervisor at Union Seminary in Richmond told me after he’d been ousted by that Presbyterian school’s president after the guy became furious at him for outing his covert liberalizing agenda to the school’s board of trustees. My revered teacher was Dr. Jack Dean Kingsbury, a Lutheran, who had been forced out of the Missouri Synod decades earlier for refusing to subscribe to the myth of biblical inerrancy. He had exposed to the trustees how the school’s president (Louis Weeks) was doing his best to take the centrist school scretly to the left while trying to retain the support of the alumni, who were far more conservative on the whole.
Kingsbury’s unforgettable remark to me was this: “David, I’ve seen the fundamentalism of the right and the fundamentalism of the left up close, and believe me, the fundamentalism of the left is worse.”
So true. There are none so illiberal as supposed liberals who have come to power after a long struggle and are determined to consolidate their gains at all costs. The sheer hypocrisy of such “liberals” is staggering.
This gorgeous piece is indeed a superlative masterpiece. The true story of how the 14 year-old prodigy Mozart managed to memorize it and transcribe it is one of those astounding facts that proves that truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. If someone were to make up a story about such a thing, no one would believe it. And yet it happened.
This piece actually requires a large space similar to the Sistine Chapel or a medieval catehdral, because it takes a second, small group of singers on the other side of the church (usually in a balcony) to provide the echo effect. Not to mention a lyric soprano who can hit those ultra high notes.
I heard the elite choir of St. George’s Episcopal in Nashville, a very large parish with a renowned music program with paid singers, do this number, and it was absolutely breath-taking.
This stunning music illustrates the fact that some of the best commentaries on Holy Scripture aren’t written by learned biblical scholars, but take the form of musical compositions or artistic works by master artists.
Thanks for the links.
The article seems pretty balanced. By the 5th century AD there was plenty of heretical belief around. This is probably just one more example (although since its a fragment its pretty hard even to know that).
Well said DP. It happened in Australia too.
Hard to take, the way City has played this year… At least not an own goal. That was a rocket of a shot from a tough angle to kick it towards the goal.
I’ve been listening to this alot this Lent. It is a masterpiece. I am partial to the version performed by Clare Collge
What will Archbishop Welby do about this?
Thank you for this. We adopted our older son from Korea (Busan) in 1987. I have to admit I started crying when I watched this, so many of these babies look just like my son did when we first adopted him. Especially the ones smiling, my son was always smiling when he was a baby.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the “resignation” of Douthat is announced by the NY Times one of these days.
What a wonderful prayer Kendall, thanks for posting this! I’ve posted it at Lent & Beyond, where I’m enjoying a chance to post a lot of wonderful Palm Sunday entries today. Prayers, quotes, devotionals, music, poetry….
Here’s the list of all of today’s Palm Sunday entries:
Amen. The lying is doubly toxic in TEC because the progressive direction is touted as the work of the Holy Spirit.
Mozart did the world a service by transcribing it. I suppose I can see how a Bishop of Rome might want to restrict it to use in the Sistine Chapel (Wagner did the same for Parsifal in Bayreuth), but I cannot imagine how a Bishop of Rome would think he has the authority to proclaim that performing it somewhere else could lead to the penalty of excommunication.
I’ve never been in a church choir with a soprano section that could sing this, and I’ve never heard a live performance. Church choirs these days are so “inclusive” that anyone (even I) can be a member, including elderly sopranos who sing flat with a wobble in the voice. Under those circumstances, this piece would be a foretaste of the eternal lake of fire.
In local Roman Catholic churches, one would be more likely to hear “Here I Am, Lord” than the Allegri “Miserere”.
Wow - what an enticing trailer. And what a world of walking in darkness. And ... what a beautiful lamp not hidden under a bushel.
And I don’t mean that Jesus, while He walked the earth, was married to any one woman, for the sake of clarity. I am talking about Pentecost and the Church’s birthday. By the way, my wonderful son, Jamie, is 31 today!
To whom has it been unclear, even prior to ++Welby’s arrival on the scene?
I have no problem with it, whatsoever.
It mentions Jesus saying He has a wife….very cool with that. The church is the Bride of Christ.
It mentions that He will dwell with her….Very cool with that. He is with the Church and forms the Church by the in”dwelling” of His Spirit.
Then He mentions that she will be his disciple. Very cool with that. The Church, His Bride, is Always learning from Him because He dwells with Her, His Bride, His Wife.
So many literalists in the realm of science that never draw the spiritual conclusion already realized by His Wife. Of course, if the Church wasn’t so completely full of “literalists”, also, this thing would have been put to rest a long time ago. “God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.” John 4:24
What garbage! One author, hundreds of miles and several centuries away from the historical Jesus, pens an imaginative work, and millions of modern folk who want to be duped believe it. At the same time, those modern agnostics and nay-sayers reject the reports of writers who lived and were taught by Jesus Himself, or at least wrote based on interviews of Jesus’s apostles.
By contrast, what proof do we have that “Homer” lived? None. Yet our universities are filled with (so-called) scholars who do not doubt his existence, or the unsubstantiated report that he was blind.
Then again, the absurdity of the misbelieving masses should not surprise me - they cannot remember the ghastly events in Libya a few years back and who are the government leaders responsible for that disaster.
I wonder how many Christians do a Passover Seder as part of their Holy Week observances?
Er, I seem to recall Woody Allen addressing this subject…
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