I don’t have anything against evangelism. What I don’t like is “sheep stealing”.
Too often missionaries will go into an area that another denomination has evangelized to ‘re-convert’ the people to “the right faith” without regard for the valid spiritual expression already present.
Good news? Or bad news for the Good News? We will see.
Christians should give no credence to the PC notion that evangelism is somehow shameful.
From the Revisionist Dictionary:
(1) For the Orthodox, encouraging others to become Christians, in keeping with the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19-20.
(2) For radical Progressives, coercing others to forsake their spiritual and cultural heritage; akin to browbeating destitute mothers to bottle-feed their babies commercial infant-formula. As if to underscore the shame of it all, forcefully pronouncing “Pro-Se-li-TiZe” gives you at least three good opportunities to spit.
Schism is heresy in that schism is caused by heresy. But it is never heresy for the orthodox to acknowledge the separation cause by the heterodox, it is what Christ calls us to do! The schism is already here and the cause is not the orthodox, only those deluding themselves see it otherwise.
I think he is proposing a way for the bishops to hold out a future of full LGBT inclusion while passing the 9/30 test:
1) make a great show of prayer and fasting
2) assent with wording that they will not perform outside of their current function as bishops, knowing that they have this “out” as he explains regarding a change in legislation by the General Convention and the House of Deputies,
3) Proclaim a continued commitment to LGBT inclusion,
4) Proclaim with tears their desire to remain in the Anglican Communion
The bishops, together, preferably by consensus, after prayer and fasting, may speak on those matters which pertain to the spiritual and practical functions of bishops….Bishops also have the final say in the matter of who is or is not ordained and collectively a collective “say” with the standing committees on the matter of who is or is not ordained or consecrated to the episcopate. For bishops to determine that they will not authorize that which has not been authorized is, one presumes, well within their scope of collective authority! For bishops to authorize that which is not authorized, even by committing themselves to turn a blind eye would be a “legislative” action and beyond the competence of the House of Bishops unless performed during General Convention and with the consent of the House of Deputies….I hope our bishops won’t take umbrage about the deadline imposed by the primates, won’t let pride assert itself, resist a “Bushish” response, don’t wrap themselves in a Cause which assumes the mantle of total Gospel at the expense of that which is affirmed in our baptisms. I hope they will be humble in asserting that which they believe they are called to say and that say that clearly and will be equally clear in striving to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
We are in for a big show and a lot of carefully crafted phrasing!!!
A friend of mine went to FSU and was a member of the Chi Omega sorority at the time of Ted Bundy. Fortunately for her, she was home for a visit at the time of the killings. I would add Bundy to your list of animals in human form.
HOWEVER, James Dobson reports that Bundy repented and became a Christian before his execution, but never used that as a reason to postpone his own death.
I would hope and pray that more on death row would come to saving faith in Christ.
Interesting there is no demographic for education.
I should have added:
This was BEFORE bottled water became fashionable. In those days the only source was Culligan (“Hey, Culligan Ma-a-a-n!”). My dad would take washed gallon milk jugs with him to work, and fill the bottles (about a dozen at a time) from the faucets at the park near his work-place. That was our source of drinking water, ice cubes, cooking water, water for tea, etc. You know, after the first wearing, I don’t think I had a WHITE t-shirt or socks (etc.) until the city finally hooked the neighborhood up to the city water supply.
I am very proud of my Spong letter in which he refers to me as “a pre-Enlightenment Neanderthal who failed to take the Scientific Revolution seriously.” I understand that this is a standard reply of his to anyone who questions his writing/thought/faith process. The irony is that he majored in English and I hold degrees in Physics, Computer Science and Electrical Engineering. Spong’s comments, like Spong’s books, are nicely written drivel that merely recycles washed-out Bultmanian existentialism. Like #29, my complaint is not what he believes, but that he used his position as a bishop to advance an anti-Christian position and justify his own immorality.
I was thinking the same thing.
#27 Planonian, “you mean” means that’s the reality of what you wrote. Sorry if the truth stings.
“... one would expect that reaction on a “reasserter” blog like T1:9.”
One would, I suppose, expect truth to prevail over error on any blog, or medium, where the concern is with accuracy and truth, but in fact it does happen a good deal more on “reasserter” blogs than on “reappraiser” blogs, where the wish is often the father of the fantasy, and the fantasy passed off as fact.
And the suggestion for “remedial reading classes” is good manners, not bad, as anyone cam easily see who will spare a moment to compare your allegation about the LC-MS with the source from whence you seemingly fetched it.
...and encouraged those threatening to quit the Anglican Communion to do so.
Never thought I would be saying this in reference to anything Spong said or wrote… but to the last part of that sentence I would like to throw out a hearty… AMEN!
Ed, before my foot displaces my tonsils, I’m going to apologize. I knew I should not have written that last line. It’s always a bad idea to get snippy.
More coming by private e-mail if you want to continue to reminisce.
Spong’s opinions on the nature of Jesus are reasonable. People can conclude that all the supernatural stuff is myth. My objection is twofold:
1. He took the money. That is, Spong acted in bad faith when he realized he wasn’t orthodox, and instead of doing the honest thing and leaving the church, he stayed on the payroll. And then tried to deconvert everyone else.
2. His idea that the church must “change or die” is truly irrational and begs the question. If Christ is not who He said He was, then the Christian religion is false and there’s no use wasting any more time with it. “Eat, drink and be merry—for tomorrow we die.” Or perhaps we should find another religion. But the answer is not to continue an institution that admits it’s false.
I am a Christian because I believe the claims of Christ to be true. If I came to realize Christianity is false (say, by Jesus’ body being found in a well-marked tomb, a la, “Here lies Jesus of Nazareth, crucified under Pontius Pilate when Caiaphus was chief priest, etc.”), then I’d go do something else. (BTW, finding Jesus’ body would demolish Islam as well, as the Koran insists Jesus was assumed directly into heaven prior to the crucifixion, and also that the Koran never errs.)
If Scripture is the word of God then everything in it is important.
Certainly it is. But we don’t obey every command in scripture the same way; that’s what fundamentalists do. Or do you believe that a woman must pray with her head covered? (I Corinthians 11:5)
I know that’s a ridiculous example, but it means that answers are almost never as simple as “the Bible says so.” If you’ve read the entire conversation, I think it’s fair to say that R&R;believes the Bible to be the word of God. I would say that peter believes so as well. Certainly I do.
BTW, with all due respect, for someone who complains we’re talking “ad nauseum,” you seem to still be wasting your own time with the discussion. And you still haven’t told me what my agenda is. I really don’t like to be that snarky, but if you’re going to take shots at those discussing and assuming our motives, I feel that it needs to be pointed out.
Reason & Revelation,
I appreciate the discussion too. This sort of discussion has been part of the church since the council of Jerusalem (guess I’m just like Bennison too, eh Br. Michael?), and I think if Christians can come together and talk in good faith and charity, the Holy Spirit could do some work. Some may think I’m naive, and that’s ok; My faith is in God, who can accomplish anything. Glad we can be in this boat together.
Your objections to the death penalty seem to be first, it’s irreversible if it turns out the conviction was wrongful and second, only God has sovereignty over human life. The first point is well taken but again, there is no perfect justice on this Earth. The numbers of perpetrators subsequently cleared of their convictions is extremely small, and at some point a cost-benefit analysis must be performed. We are taxing the victims themselves for the upkeep of savages in fear of the extremely long odds of an innocent man being executed. As to the second point, you are trying to prove too much with it. If only God has sovereignty over human life, one can likewise argue against medical intervention and acts of self defense. And again, why the distinction between imprisonment and the death penalty? Both are a deprivation. I’d also argue that execution amounts to collective self-defense which is clearly allowed under Christian teaching.
I stand by the characterization of certain humans, Jeffrey Dahmer comes to mind, as animals. We all have depraved fantasies lurking in our hearts, though I will presume to say that cannibalizing young boys is never something to which I’ve been tempted. Those beasts who act on them are a menace to innocent people and as a result their lives are forfeit.
The problem is not whether a state spends $X per student, the problem is how much of that money ACTUALLY goes to the classroom, and how much goes to administrative costs?
#10, But of course one would expect that reaction on a “reasserter” blog like T1:9. Since you lot see yourselves as a confessional reaction against TEC, it’s no wonder you’d sympathize with the LCMS against the ELCA.
I think that remedial reading classes are called for.
As are remedial classes in good manners for you, sir (I realize that such suggestions are the equivalent of shouting into the wind here, but one must make the attempt on occasion).
#19, an old boss of mine met Spong’s brother, who is a pretty orthodox theologian. He described J.S. as being really, really nice, wonderful in character and demeanor, and totally off the reservation doctrinally.
Some of the nicest people I know are complete and utter unbelievers.
Fr. Clavier must realize that the ECUSA revisionists are provoking revisionist reaction.
So, if the the revisionists ‘back off’ and meet the Dar Es Salaam requirements by 30 Sep 07, then the revisionists will have no immediate reason to react.
But, the revisionists are following an agenda that they seem to care more for than the unity of the Anglican Communion.
Therefore, it’s very likely that the ECUSA revisionists will provoke a situation that clearly signals to many in the Communion that ECUSA has decided to ‘set it’s own couse,’ a course that is seriously at odds with many of the Communion’s churches and which can result in schism.
Who’s at fault here?
ECUSA’s revisionists, that’s who.
#24, no Phil - I meant what I wrote. Please don’t put words in my mouth.
#16 Planonian: The problem is it’s not a question of being nice. The Scriptures repeatedly teach us to expose and expel the wolf from among the sheep. And church leaders have a specific duty appointed by Scripture to protect the sheep from the wolves. That’s why pastors are called pastors (shepherds). That’s why bishops carry that symbolic shepherd’s crook.
As per my above posting, pastors in other denominations understand that. Episcopalians do not and let the wolves scatter and devour the sheep at will.
The shepherds are senseless
and do not inquire of the LORD;
so they do not prosper
and all their flock is scattered. . . .
Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the LORD.”
Jeremiah 10:21; 23:2
This is why I started out my remarks on this thread not from Biblical authority but from the practical arguments on the importance of Biblical teachings as a deep, wise structure, because I am not a fundamentalist (I think you may have gotten that impression, and I am not).
If this is where you are basing your discussion then you are wasting your time. If Scripture is the word of God then everything in it is important. If it is not, then you are indeed having a nice, polite and irrelevant discussion. If, at the end of the day, Scripture is not the Holy Spirit inspired word of God, then it is not authoritative and all appeals to it are worthless.
#21 Br. Michael: AMEN!
If they cannot discipline someone who denies Christ’s divinity (and with it His Salvific Powere) then how can they possibly go after any orthodox for their beliefs? Am I to understand the “nice guy” test is now Salvific?
St. Peter: ” Yes, Yes, I know you upheld the Scriptures, confirmed in the face of adversity that Jesus was God’s own Son, and wholly man and wholly God. I’m well aware that you made yourself subservient to God’s will, God’s desires, and His Holy Word as passed to you through Scriptures. Jolly good. That’s all very well…but…
Would people say you were a nice guy? Yes? Allright then, up you go!”
It almost sounds like a Monty Python Sketch. (Whaaaaaaaaat is yer name!!)
I second Charles. I don’t know anything about this community. I would dearly love to see a rebirth of religious communities and vowed religious in the Anglican Communion and indeed in Protestantism.
Planonian, you mean, “Godwin’s Dodge” for reappraiser Episcopalians.
The really tragic thing this shows is not Spong, who is a joke, but rather the apostasy of Philip Aspinall, the Primate of Australia. When you hear Sydney being reviled, remember this.
Aspinall is just a stuffed purple shirt who denies the faith he swore to uphold. Think what this will mwean for the future of Anglicanism down under.
LibraryJim [#19]: Those at the Spong end of the theological spectrum may benefit from the “nice person” defense but they’re rather stingy about according that defense to the orthodox. Just think of what’s been said about Brad Drell and Greg Griffith, to name only two examples.
19, and that is a major part part of the problem. TEC left him that collar and that collar equals legitamacy.
They sound like Neville Chamberlain.
19: The Bible teaches you have to watch out for the ones that look like “angels of light” on the surface.
I could go along with this call for infinite patience if the other side weren’t proceeding to persecute the orthodox and move their agenda along. Why is it that they don’t have to be patient, but we have to?
Years ago, one of my fellow parishoners returned from convention, where J. Spong was in attendance. In fact, she boasted that she sat at the same table as he.
“I don’t know what all the fuss is about, he’s a really nice person.”
I remarked that because of his theology, I’d have a difficult time sitting next to him, and would have asked for a different table assignment.
She called me intolerant, and said, “that’s just plain mean”. He’s such a nice person and he’s a bishop, he deserves respect for that alone!
That’s all she could see—he was a nice person, his theology didn’t have anything to do with anything.
It’s risky to rely on Wikipedia, as I tell me students; indeed, I forbid them to cite it or use it for research papers. But what are we to think of your use of it, as you are 100% mistaken in your reading of the key paragraph:
“Pietism is considered the major influence that lead to the creation of the “Evangelical Church of the Union” in Prussia in 1817. Upset by the fact that he and his wife could not take communion at each other’s church, the King of Prussia ordered the Lutheran and Reformed churches in Prussia to unite; they took the name “Evangelical”, meaning simply “Protestant” in German, as a name both groups had previously identified with. This union movement spread through many German lands in the 1800s. Pietism, with its looser attitude toward confessional theology, had opened the churches to the possibility of uniting. Lutherans who claimed to be more confessionally-strict dissented from the union movement; many immigrated to the American Midwest and formed the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, and to Australia where they formed the Lutheran Church of Australia. (Many immigrants to American that agreed with the union movement formed German Evangelical congregations, later to be gathered as the Evangelical Synod of North America, which is now a part of the United Church of Christ.)”
which clearly states, as is historically true, that the Missouri Synod originated as a Confessional Lutheran reaction AGAINST Pietism.
I think that remedial reading classes are called for.
When you’re a Grandmother you’ve earned the right to LOL at your own jokes.
Thanks for the response, Adam, and for your candid participation in this discussion. I truly appreciate it. This is what the Windsor listening process should be about.
Hi Randy et al.
I have a slightly different “interpretation” of what the family said.
Upon hearing where he was, that asked, “Is he out of his mind”??
How many of asked have asked just such a question about our teenagers? LOL
But there ya go, that’s just “my truth” LOL
What is so corrupt with this religious community (genuine question)?
#6 has the kindest take on Bp. Spong that I’ve ever seen in any rightwing Anglican blog. Thanks for that - esp. considering that mentioning Bishops Spong or Pike is the equivalent of a violation of Godwin’s Law for Episcopalians/Anglicans
#10 Ah, Spong, so full of spleen and shot through with contradictions!
Oh yeah, not like anyone here of course… heh.
All schools want more money - I just don’t think there is a disparity in money per pupil between inner city and surburban because suburbs to not have the buisness tax base (also many of the middle class kids are in private schools) I think Houston Independent School District pays more than my kindergartan teaching wife’s surburban school district. The most affluent districts per pupil in Texas are small rural districts with power plants located in the county.
Regardless of what they call themselves, the Missouri Synod is really Pietist not Lutheran. Rather like the relationship of the Methodists to the CoE (but at least the Methodists don’t use the word “Anglican” in the name of their denomination).
#3 Randy Mueller,
Mark 3:21 does probably point in that direction, though the Gk idiom (hoi par’ autou) does not necessarily need to refer to a family, though BDAG and most commentators have taken it this way—rightly, I think. Interestingly, the episode is not paralleled in the other gospels, and the Western text type substitutes “scribes and others” for hoi par’ autou. I conjecture that behind this was some discomfort with the notion that Jesus’ family had a hard time coming to terms with who he was. But, if hoi par’ autou is original (almost certainly the case) and refers to Jesus’ family (as is most likely), this is, in fact, evidence for the resurrection that transformed incredulous family members into followers of Jesus and leaders of the church. I guess Spong just can’t win.
It’s rich to hear Spong talk about integrity. If he had any, he’s have long since turned in his mitre and joined the American Atheists.
#10”—- Although Spong regards himself as brave, he actually takes the safe and profitable path of serving up what secular intellectuals and their mass-market admirers want to hear. He unwittingly mimics the Episcopal Ghost in chapter V of C.S. Lewis’ allegory, The Great Divorce. And like the ghost, he confuses expedient conformity with fearless principle. As one of the ghost’s former colleagues declares, “We simply found ourselves in contact with a certain current of ideas and plunged into it because it seemed modern and successful.”
And the fact that Harvard hired him, QED.
Prices are being driven up by diversion of resources to produce ethanol, the latest government energy fad. Problem is, ethanol uses more energy than it saves. They don’t tell you that. Plus, your fuel supply and the cost of the same are now at risk from natural disasters like storm and drought.
VaAnglican [#9 & 14] has it right: the couple’s claim should and almost certainly will founder on the church’s First Amendment to the free exercise of religion.
But the couple’s complain does serve as a reminder of how little respect some activists have for faith-based scruples. I hope someone is compiling a list of successful and unsuccessful attempts to force Christians to carry out a gay rights agenda they believe contrary to scripture. The list would be useful the next time we’re told there is really no need for an explicit conscience clause.
When Spong was in my neck of the woods, various churches (non-ECUSA of course) sent out warnings not to listen to him. One pastor was quoted calling him a vile heretic. The papers loved it of course.
I can not judge a madman’s ravings. The ultimate judgement will evaluate what his fate will be. May God have mercy on one who has strayed so far from his obligations as a bishop.
We should be slow to criticize word choice (race hatred?) and tense of individual nouns - how many of us speak/translate a local dialect, French, and English. How do we know how the original words would be taken in Rwanda? In fact, many of the reported quotes were taken from the context of a larger radio broadcast, which also may have been translated from a language other than English. Perhaps it is a local, western cultural bias that leads us to jump to such accusations.
Oh, by the way, Otis Charles makes two, and I am aware of at least a third.
Taking up this SSJE offer might put a soldier in danger of violating “Don’t ask, don’t tell.” A sadly corrupted religious community.
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