#15, I’m starting to think Fred might be a “bot.” Pre-programmed with lefty, universalist drivel. I’m only half kidding, when I was in undergrad I knew several folks who could make one, and it’d only take one bored orthodox college kid to make one as a joke. My old room mate made one to be a girl posting on a programing list serv in order to tease his buddies who asked for her number.
I find this rather peculiar and wonder why these infants were buried separately and apparent;y often in unmarked graves. These are not Roman Catholics who until fairly recently were taught that unbaptized babies don’t go to heaven. According to the article these are Greeks. The Orthodox Church has never endorsed such a strange doctrine.
From what I see it’s not terribly fond of sanctioning Christianity, either. I’m with Fred, way to go for not staying insdie the “very small box” of Christ!
#14, There you are, as predictable as the sunrise…
Your comments are so clown-ish, so nonsensical, so absurd that it is almost impossible to believe you are a real person. This has to be satire…
What a great list of candidates, although sadly, there is no person of color on it. Still, Chicago has sent a strong “heads up” to the HOB and the ABC at this very important time: TEC is not going to turn back the clock, not going to sanction bigotry, hatred and discrimination, and not going to cave in to the schismatics who justify exclusion with their…..in my opinion, very unchristian…..very flawed interpretation of the Bible. Congrats to all the candidates…….but truly, it’s time for our second gay bishop. Tracey Lind will make a great one!!!!!!!!
Can’t get much more clarity than this. In TEC, the only “manner of life” that is disqualifying is if you stay married to your first and only spouse. Proves you are an intolerant fundgelical or whatever that word is that they use.
LOL! What do y’all ride on the beat?
How utterly absurd!
For any person to seriously make the statement that this Lind person is an “extraordinarily qualified candidate” to be a Bishop is grounds to question their sanity.
William Tighe wrote:
“There used to be a REC diocese seated in Chicago, a diocese that had a certain reputation for “high-church-ism” because it alone retained the use of surplices for its clergy and the “episcopal habit” for its bishop, when these had been given up everywhere else for the black “Geneva gown,” until it, too, was forced to give them up in the 1920s— but a glance at the entry for the REC in the 2000 *Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches* seems to indicate that that diocese no longer exists. Perhaps it is due for a revival. “
The synod of Chicago of the Reformed Episcopal Chuch, which was the oldest jurisisdiction of the REC is now a part of the Diocese of Mid-America. (From the REC Diocesan Website: “In 1996, the Special Jurisdiction merged with the oldest Diocese in the Reformed Episcopal Church (Synod of Chicago) and formed the Diocese of Mid-America. Since its beginnings, the Diocese has grown from two parishes to over forty.” This jurisdiction did maintain more “high church” styles and that style is now moving back throughout the REC. The “Geneva Gown” is decreasing and even Albs and Chausables are showing up. The REC is no longer the “Presbyterians with a Prayerbook” it used to be. We have been reclaiming our Anglican Heritage over the last 20 years or so and are actually in full communion with the Anglican Province of America which is quite “high church” in style but very “evangelical” in actions.
#6: You’re correct: the church (and church building) is often analogized to a ship. The word nave comes from the Latin navis. It’s generally thought that the association sprung from the appearance of the center part of a church, which if turned upside down with its pitched roof appeared like the keel of a ship of sail. The church protects its inhabitants from peril, as does a ship. Despite it disparate members, it moves in the same direction, toward the same destination (“their desired haven”—Ps 107) And so forth. That’s not what this commentator meant, of course, when using the quotation from Camera (aka the “Red Bishop,” for his Marxist leanings: he laid the groundwork for what was to be liberation theology). But the analogy itself is ancient and a fine one.
Lee’s Opening the Prayer Book (The Church’s New Teaching Series, I believe) was a deeply disappointing book.
So…. who can help us with similar animation for the elves?
France elected a conservative for the first time since—well, ever?
With the news that Iran has a ‘smart bomb’ and is willing to use them on ‘their enemies’, one has to now try to discern: who does Iran consider their enemies?
That should be “We keep LISTENING and others keep acting!”
When you replace Jesus with the United Nations, you are bound to have a problem.
Robroy - predominately upper middle class white liberals are also not so good at reproducing.
#6 Good point. You point out a reason to avoid analogies. As you say, there are always exceptions. As an old friend use to say, “It’s not always wise to call a spade a shovel.” Too many ways to use both words.
We keep talking and others keep acting!
Here’s the “sermons” page from St. Thomas, Medina (the Rev. Jeffrey D. Lee’s parish):
It really doesn’t matter what the House of Bishops does in September, just as the 1998 Lambeth Conference didn’t matter to a number of TEC dioceses. These people have Truth on their side and anyone who disagrees is a bigot. Just ask Susan Russell. She knows.
links for Timothy Safford
So far links to two of his sermons have been posted at SF:
A sermon on Mark 2 (Jesus’ healing of the paralytic let down through the roof) which includes this line:
But Jesus is not forgiving sins the paralytic has committed, is he? No he is forgiving him the sins that those who blocked the door have put upon him, the sins of how he has been excluded because he is different for nothing he himself could control. In forgiving his sin, Jesus is taking away the sin of being different, strange, spare, and marvelously but uniquely different—for being simply the other that makes the dominant like me uncomfortable.
That’s it for the links posted over in the comment thread at SF as of this writing.
What all can our readers here add to the discussion about the candidates and their beliefs?
Wow, and pro-abortion, too. ECUSA: including all God’s people - except for the babies.
For Margaret Rose:
1.several links re: her involvement in the Melnyks pagan liturgy scandal
Old TitusOneNine links (see especially the second which is explicitly focused on Margaret Rose’s view of the whole situation)
2. Her involvement in Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice pro-choice march:
Evil of me, but I shall point out that the most common ship metaphor for the Church is the “Barque of Peter.”
The only one of the candidates I know personally—albeit slightly—is the Rev. Jeffrey Lee. I interviewed with him for an internship a year or so back (I ended up elsewhere) and he was one of the candidates in our recent diocesan search here in the Diocese of Olympia.
From what I know of him, I like him and I think he’d be a pretty good bishop; but I dare say he’s too far out on the “reappraiser” side for most of you.
Folks at Stand Firm are quite busy researching several of these candidates. Here are some of the links they’ve pulled up.
For Tracey Lind:
Church growth charts for Trinity Cathedral and her prior parish in Paterson, NJ:
Will post links for other candidates separately
“I don’t recognize any of the names. Are there any Christians on the slate?”
Tracy Lind (Dean of Cleveland) is a partnered lesbian; Margaret Rose was, as I recall, the disseminator of weird and pagan-inspired rituals around 2004 from the ECUSA “women’s office;” and I have a vague recollection of having read “gay-friendly” theological eructations from the two male candidates. Who has the lowdown on Jane Gould?
The big news today is that The Agenda has trumped discernment.
If one were to scrutinize the (P)ECUSA bishops of Chicago over the years, examining their actions and opinions, one could construct a nice “morality tale” about “facilis descensus Averni” (the easy descent to Hell) by showing how “moderate” Anglo-Catholicism morphed into “Liberal Catholicism” into empty ritualism and then into complete modernism. The first bishop, Philander Chase (1835-1852) was a moderately high-church Evangelical. His successor, Henry Whitehouse (1852-1874) was a devotee of the Oxford Movement and Tractarianism, who so harassed Evangelicals in his diocese that a large number of them seceded to the Reformed Episcopal Church towards the end of his episcopate and that of his successor, William McLaren (1875-1905), who was more Anglo-Catholic still—as were Charles Anderson (1905-1930), Sheldon Griswold (1930), George Stewart (1930-1940) and Wallace Conkling (1941-1953). Conkling’s successor, Gerald Burrill (1954-1971), who died only recently aged almost 100, was rather “liberalish” in his views, both as regards theology and matters such as divorce and remarriage. A friend of mine, now a retired Catholic priest, but between 1954 and 1978 a Lutheran minister, went to see Bishop Burrill around 1955 about becoming an Episcopalian, but Burrill rapidly lost patience with my friend’s theological questions, replying to one of them with the words “we don’t think about the Creed, we just say it.” James Montgomery (1971-1987) was a homosexual (as he himself admitted in retirement) who just couldn’t bring himself to ordain women, even though he didn’t oppose WO, but had one of his suffragan bishops “do it” and during his episcopate Chicago became a haven for antinomian (let the reader understand!) clergy of all sorts and all genders. Frank Griswold (1987-1998), a modernist with a slightly “Catholic aroma” came next, and then William Persell (1998-present), a modernist also, but as far as I can see a colorless one without any “theological aroma.” It is a sad story, but so far as I can see either Tracy Lind or Margaret Rose seem to be the logical, and perhaps inevitable, next step on the downward staircase. I hope that Cardinal George and his Orthodox counterparts will have discriminatingly “open arms” and be all things to all men that by all means they may save some.
There used to be a REC diocese seated in Chicago, a diocese that had a certain reputation for “high-church-ism” because it alone retained the use of surplices for its clergy and the “episcopal habit” for its bishop, when these had been given up everywhere else for the black “Geneva gown,” until it, too, was forced to give them up in the 1920s— but a glance at the entry for the REC in the 2000 *Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches* seems to indicate that that diocese no longer exists. Perhaps it is due for a revival.
Imagine that! Elected on November 10 and consecrated on February 2. Let’s see, that is not even 90 days. Hmmmmm…...
Is this an ‘opening shot’ just as firing on Fort Sumpter led to the hostilities of the American Civil War?
In this case, however, it seems that the Diocese of Chicago may be trying to ignite a civil war withing the Anglican Communion.
Couldn’t Chicago’s timing have been different? After al, Sep 30 is only 33 days away and the start of the New Orleans meeting is only 23 days away.
William, while this elf will be among the first to voice concerns over this slate of candidates (or at least 3 of them that I know something about), your comment above is not helpful.
Please let’s focus here on sharing facts about the candidates and hard evidence about their beliefs and theology without getting into name-calling or really heavy sarcasm.
Is it important to be a good teacher or is it important to be gay?
The headline on the linked webpage reads:
Three women and two men are on slate
I don’t recognize any of the names. Are there any Christians on the slate?
Re #4: Should read “God too changes.”
“God to changes.” Never!
My sig says “Oldman” which is true. The good Vicar’s analogy is, for at least some, nice-sounding and perhaps comforting. In my life I have lived in houses with a solid foundations and sailed on ships that seemed to be going in the right direction, but I soon found out differently.
As a boy, I started in a solid house, then while in college I set sail, but soon found that the winds that filled the sails were not always soft zephyrs. More often than not they were produced by angry storms.
The same with houses. Having lived in an Islamic country where most houses were built on stones of a mistaken faith, I found an Anglican house that helped me and my faith survive.
God’s house does not set sail, but stands solidly because the Master Carpenter built it. There is no way to improve it by erecting mast after mast and sailing waters using charts made by humans.
I pity those in our church who want to set sail and discover new truths, but the ones I pity the most are their children and their grandchildren who are taught to search for the Truth in every port on the world’s seas.
I pray to my Lord, that they will someday move into a house that is strong, because it was built by the Master Carpenter. Every board, every nail has a purpose.
My word of advice to my children and grandchildren is not to live in a house that was made by man, but one built by the Master Carpenter.
#5, not an issue for me, since I’m now Catholic (and my prior parish is in good hands both at the parish and diocesan level) but thanks for caring.
#5 - All things come from the Lord and will return to him. I will leave any building behind, regretful that the brand name has been usurped by non-Christians, to follow the Lord.
The Anglican Church of Canada is a diocesan based structure with the dioceses holding the property in trust for the Anglican Church. With the possible exception of the Chapel Royal mentioned in the article, the only way the we reasserter types get to keep our buildings is if the Archbishop of Canterbury chooses to recognize us as the Anglican Church in Canada in preference to the current regime. If so, we may choose to use that recognition to exercise our stewardship of God’s resources in a more Christian way. But I’m not holding my breath and we are looking for alternate venues to have services when the schism is finally official.
Doesn’t sound much like our friends the cheese-eating surrender monkeys to me. What happened?! Is it possible, perish the thought, that the French were right on Iraq and are now right on Iran??
Questions of human sexuality strike at the core of what it means to be a human being. SO his assertion that the pro-gay agenda of TEC and the diocese are not to be blamed are absurd. Certainly, the problem is much larger than the pro-gay agenda alone, but that agenda is a large part of the problem and indicates a community (TEC) that is fundamentally sick and diseased and unable to foster human relationships, specifically within families.
Ah, #5 Rick D, but I will not be going. I could never abandon those I care about to bad doctrine and heresy. Even should they choose it, I will be there to remind them where orthodoxy lies.
Never been that popular anyway. No point in kow-towing now.
In point #3 I would say, after 30+ years of ministry, that if ones only exposure to scripture is the lectionary it is not “significant” but, rather, superficial. Tom Wright ,in his series on the three year lectionary, often refers to the prissyness and timidity of the lectionary as it regularly skips through a passages of scripture leaving out that which might offend modern ears.
I sincerely hope that when this young lady comes home that she will not be subjected to arguments, spoken or unspoken, about whether or not she should have been in Iraq (for whatever reason). Do our churches have any idea what to do with someone who has been involved in this kind of carnage? What kind of “Welcome Home” will she get? Will she even be able to set foot in a church? What about all of the others who are home or will be coming home soon? Are people going to expect them to just get back to “normal”? PTSD is real and we have/ will have some very wounded folks in our midst. As for this particular soldier, whatever her veracity and actual circumstances, perhaps we can pray that she will get the help she so obviously needs.
me, me, me. news flash. it’s not “their own”. It belongs to Christ, or at least it SHOULD.
Then you won’t mind leaving it behind, when you go….
The whole thing strikes me as a confusion campaign, particularly the part about having conversations. The conversation we all need to have is with Jesus.
That should read “without regard for its safety . . .”
I think the ship analogy is a grand one. The Episcopal Church is much akin to a ship—a ship that is not just leaking but which is taking on water faster than it can be pumped out; a ship that has no suitable or prudent mariners at the helm; a ship whose officers have deliberately jettisoned the navigational charts and compass which which they were entrusted; a ship that is adrift, without any bearings or any ability to moor; a ship that has no ability to control its sails, and so will blow in whichever direction the wind blows, with regard for its safety or that of its cargo and crew. It is a ship that while technically “sailing,” is in fact moving without purpose or destination, save to destruction. And yet those at the help seem oblivious to it all, equating movement with progress and unaware totally of the titanic disaster looming below decks, where years of poor training have left the crew unable to shore up the bulkheads and stem the flow of the water pouring in.
Yes, the ship is indeed an apt analogy for a church, and most especially the Episcopal Church.
Smuggs (an appropriate moniker) writes: “Voices throughout the decades have been saying that the Episcopal Church will crash and burn over whatever the hot issue is of the day.” There has never been an operating deficit for the TEC. There is now, as announced in March, 3.5 million dollar deficit. The 20/20 goal of doubling membership by 2020 is not much talked about. The adjusted average Sunday attendance drop is accelerating, now approximately 3% per year. I am quite sure this is comprised of predominantly orthodox conservatives. Yes, the rate will eventually slow. We have a saying in medicine that all bleeding eventually stops. This will be after all orthodox have been un-welcomed from the churches rolls. Unfortunately, for Mr. Smuggs and the TEC, liberals have been shown to be pretty poor at either fund raising or evangelization.
All I can say is “wow”. All the conspiracy theories about those “nasty” Africans. I find it rather pathetic. If you really wish to hear it from the source, I suggest you look at the interview with +Orombi over on Anglican TV. They fully expect this to be a temporary oversight “fix” until the orthodox Americans get their act together and establish a “home grown” oversight structure.
As for the money, well our South American diocesan expects us to forward no more than we used to send to our former Episcopal diocese and whenever it is convenient for us. Yep, really money grubbers there.
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