RECENT COMMENTS

By Brian from T19 on August 28, 2007 at 2:59 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Integrity Responds to List of Candidates for Bishop of Chicago

Couldn’t Chicago’s timing have been different?  After al, Sep 30 is only 33 days away and the start of the New Orleans meeting is only 23 days away.

I think that is the point.  They want to bring the issue into the spotlight.  There’s no question this was debated by the nominating committee.  What I find disturbing is that the nomination reeks of ‘tokenism.’  I don’t believe that Lind+ will receive many, if any, votes and that the nomination is the point.



By libraryjim on August 28, 2007 at 2:59 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Darryl E. Owens--Note to Muslims: We didn't yield free speech on 9-11

“South Park” also regularly uses “free speech” to trample the faith of Christians.  The actor who played ‘chef’ didn’t have a problem with this until they picked on HIS religion (Scientology), and then quit in a huff.



By libraryjim on August 28, 2007 at 2:57 pm [comment link]
From the entry: 'Giving while living' alters inheritances

But the best part is that it gets the money into the hands of the children without the 60% ‘death tax’ cut. grin



By libraryjim on August 28, 2007 at 2:56 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Jason Zengerle: Evangelicals Turn toward...The Orthodox Church?

One of my biggest pet peeves is former baptist ministers who joined the Episcopal church, became ordained and then tries to re-make the liturgy into a little Baptist Church service (overheads, so-called praise bands instead of choir; hour long sermons; cutting out parts of the service such as the Gloria; etc.). 

My question for them is: if all you want to do is re-create the Baptist style of worship, why did you leave the Baptist Church in the first place?  Why can’t you appreciate the traditions of the liturgical church which drew you here?

So, is there a similar problem with this in the Orthodox Church?

Jim Elliott <><



By Fred on August 28, 2007 at 2:53 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

#17 - FYI - I’m not a “bot”. I’m a cradle Episcopalian, from a long line of Episcopalians and have many clergy in my family tree. I have a long-standing stake in this church. I cannot sit quietly by on the sidelines and watch it become something it has never been. I attend a very liberal parish and espouse a very post modern Christianity….one that has no tolerance for biblically sanctioned homophobia. I find it repugnant! I have tried to understand your point of view but the comments here are often mean spirited and ridiculous….like one earlier questioning whether the Chicago candidates are even Christian.  You may not like me and think my comments are drivel….but I am real. And there are many more like me out here who just don’t have the stomach for this kind of discourse. But, enough about me….....let’s talk about why Tracey Lind should be made a bishop.



By Br_er Rabbit on August 28, 2007 at 2:49 pm [comment link]
From the entry: From the No Comment Department

The animated beat cop needs to be supplied with a good Irish brogue.



By scaevola on August 28, 2007 at 2:48 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Joseph Nieman: A great failure to live into a strategy for the mission of Christ in Western Michigan

(continuing my last thought).  Nevertheless, I do have confidence the Kalamazoo Family Church will use their new home in the service of the Gospel.



By scaevola on August 28, 2007 at 2:46 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Joseph Nieman: A great failure to live into a strategy for the mission of Christ in Western Michigan

Amen to all of the above.  But in addition, the Cathedral of Christ the King was an ugly, impractical building in the wrong place.  Like asking people to worship in the Guggenheim Museum.



By Sarah1 on August 28, 2007 at 2:43 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

Andrew 717, funny!  ; > )

Archer of the Forest, I think the radical revisionists—a la Fred, etc—learned that it isn’t a good idea to nominate multiple non-celibate homosexuals for one slate.  At that point you’ve divided the vote of radicals-who-wish-to-elect-another-non-celibate-homoesexual, and allowed the institutional progressives to hone in on their one “let’s drop anchor here and hope they’ll all fall asleep” institutional candidate.

No, they’ll need to combine their vote for the one candidate.



By Sarah1 on August 28, 2007 at 2:39 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

Rolling Eyes, Fred is not only real but he has his own blog:
http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.php/t19/article/4882/#90202

[Note: Fred denies it later on in the comments, but . . . ]



By driver8 on August 28, 2007 at 2:36 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

I just glanced through Lee’s sermon entitled the the Scapegoat. I imagined fom the title that it would be a popularization of the house theologian of the Aff. Cath’s, Rene Girard. It was.



By The_Archer_of_the_Forest on August 28, 2007 at 2:32 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

I was really quite surprised that Bonnie Perry of All Saints in Chicago was not on the list of bishops. I was in Chicago that last three years in seminary, so I became familiar with the Diocese. I know Perry has been in at least one other bishop election (San Francisco, I think). I know a lot of the liberal folk in Chicago were banking on her. Wonder what happened? I know she applied.



By Andrew717 on August 28, 2007 at 2:29 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

#15, I’m starting to think Fred might be a “bot.”  Pre-programmed with lefty, universalist drivel.  I’m only half kidding, when I was in undergrad I knew several folks who could make one, and it’d only take one bored orthodox college kid to make one as a joke.  My old room mate made one to be a girl posting on a programing list serv in order to tease his buddies who asked for her number.



By Ad Orientem on August 28, 2007 at 2:28 pm [comment link]
From the entry: More than 160 children who died in the early 1900s are embraced by church

I find this rather peculiar and wonder why these infants were buried separately and apparent;y often in unmarked graves.  These are not Roman Catholics who until fairly recently were taught that unbaptized babies don’t go to heaven.  According to the article these are Greeks.  The Orthodox Church has never endorsed such a strange doctrine.



By Andrew717 on August 28, 2007 at 2:26 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

From what I see it’s not terribly fond of sanctioning Christianity, either.  I’m with Fred, way to go for not staying insdie the “very small box” of Christ!



By Rolling Eyes on August 28, 2007 at 2:26 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

#14, There you are, as predictable as the sunrise…

Your comments are so clown-ish, so nonsensical, so absurd that it is almost impossible to believe you are a real person.  This has to be satire…



By Fred on August 28, 2007 at 2:22 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

What a great list of candidates, although sadly, there is no person of color on it. Still, Chicago has sent a strong “heads up” to the HOB and the ABC at this very important time: TEC is not going to turn back the clock, not going to sanction bigotry, hatred and discrimination, and not going to cave in to the schismatics who justify exclusion with their…..in my opinion, very unchristian…..very flawed interpretation of the Bible. Congrats to all the candidates…….but truly, it’s time for our second gay bishop. Tracey Lind will make a great one!!!!!!!!



By DaveG on August 28, 2007 at 2:17 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Integrity Responds to List of Candidates for Bishop of Chicago

Can’t get much more clarity than this.  In TEC, the only “manner of life” that is disqualifying is if you stay married to your first and only spouse.  Proves you are an intolerant fundgelical or whatever that word is that they use.



By Sherri on August 28, 2007 at 2:17 pm [comment link]
From the entry: From the No Comment Department

LOL! What do y’all ride on the beat?



By Rolling Eyes on August 28, 2007 at 2:15 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Integrity Responds to List of Candidates for Bishop of Chicago

How utterly absurd!

For any person to seriously make the statement that this Lind person is an “extraordinarily qualified candidate” to be a Bishop is grounds to question their sanity.



By recchip on August 28, 2007 at 2:11 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

William Tighe wrote:
“There used to be a REC diocese seated in Chicago, a diocese that had a certain reputation for “high-church-ism” because it alone retained the use of surplices for its clergy and the “episcopal habit” for its bishop, when these had been given up everywhere else for the black “Geneva gown,” until it, too, was forced to give them up in the 1920s— but a glance at the entry for the REC in the 2000 *Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches* seems to indicate that that diocese no longer exists.  Perhaps it is due for a revival. “

The synod of Chicago of the Reformed Episcopal Chuch, which was the oldest jurisisdiction of the REC is now a part of the Diocese of Mid-America.  (From the REC Diocesan Website: “In 1996, the Special Jurisdiction merged with the oldest Diocese in the Reformed Episcopal Church (Synod of Chicago) and formed the Diocese of Mid-America. Since its beginnings, the Diocese has grown from two parishes to over forty.”  This jurisdiction did maintain more “high church” styles and that style is now moving back throughout the REC.  The “Geneva Gown” is decreasing and even Albs and Chausables are showing up.  The REC is no longer the “Presbyterians with a Prayerbook” it used to be.  We have been reclaiming our Anglican Heritage over the last 20 years or so and are actually in full communion with the Anglican Province of America which is quite “high church” in style but very “evangelical” in actions.



By VaAnglican on August 28, 2007 at 2:03 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Glynn Cardy Reflects on the model of the church as a ship

#6: You’re correct: the church (and church building) is often analogized to a ship.  The word nave comes from the Latin navis.  It’s generally thought that the association sprung from the appearance of the center part of a church, which if turned upside down with its pitched roof appeared like the keel of a ship of sail.  The church protects its inhabitants from peril, as does a ship.  Despite it disparate members, it moves in the same direction, toward the same destination (“their desired haven”—Ps 107)  And so forth.  That’s not what this commentator meant, of course, when using the quotation from Camera (aka the “Red Bishop,” for his Marxist leanings: he laid the groundwork for what was to be liberation theology).  But the analogy itself is ancient and a fine one.



By Churchman on August 28, 2007 at 2:02 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

Lee’s Opening the Prayer Book (The Church’s New Teaching Series, I believe) was a deeply disappointing book.



By The_Elves on August 28, 2007 at 2:01 pm [comment link]
From the entry: From the No Comment Department

So…. who can help us with similar animation for the elves? wink



By libraryjim on August 28, 2007 at 2:01 pm [comment link]
From the entry: France's Sarkozy raises prospect of Iran airstrikes

France elected a conservative for the first time since—well, ever?

With the news that Iran has a ‘smart bomb’ and is willing to use them on ‘their enemies’, one has to now try to discern: who does Iran consider their enemies?



By libraryjim on August 28, 2007 at 2:00 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Integrity Responds to List of Candidates for Bishop of Chicago

George,
That should be “We keep LISTENING and others keep acting!”

Jim



By Jim the Puritan on August 28, 2007 at 1:51 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Joseph Nieman: A great failure to live into a strategy for the mission of Christ in Western Michigan

When you replace Jesus with the United Nations, you are bound to have a problem.



By chips on August 28, 2007 at 1:50 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Reuters: Africa gives refuge to traditional U.S. Anglicans

Robroy - predominately upper middle class white liberals are also not so good at reproducing. smile



By Oldman on August 28, 2007 at 1:49 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Glynn Cardy Reflects on the model of the church as a ship

#6 Good point. You point out a reason to avoid analogies.  As you say, there are always exceptions.  As an old friend use to say, “It’s not always wise to call a spade a shovel.”  Too many ways to use both words.
Thanks



By Sir Highmoor on August 28, 2007 at 1:46 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Integrity Responds to List of Candidates for Bishop of Chicago

We keep talking and others keep acting!



By Ross on August 28, 2007 at 1:46 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

Here’s the “sermons” page from St. Thomas, Medina (the Rev. Jeffrey D. Lee’s parish):

http://stthomasmedina.org/Sermons/Sermons.htm



By Words Matter on August 28, 2007 at 1:38 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Integrity Responds to List of Candidates for Bishop of Chicago

It really doesn’t matter what the House of Bishops does in September, just as the 1998 Lambeth Conference didn’t matter to a number of TEC dioceses. These people have Truth on their side and anyone who disagrees is a bigot. Just ask Susan Russell. She knows.



By The_Elves on August 28, 2007 at 1:38 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

links for Timothy Safford

So far links to two of his sermons have been posted at SF:

On Radical Inclusivity

A sermon on Mark 2 (Jesus’ healing of the paralytic let down through the roof) which includes this line:

But Jesus is not forgiving sins the paralytic has committed, is he? No he is forgiving him the sins that those who blocked the door have put upon him, the sins of how he has been excluded because he is different for nothing he himself could control. In forgiving his sin, Jesus is taking away the sin of being different, strange, spare, and marvelously but uniquely different—for being simply the other that makes the dominant like me uncomfortable.

That’s it for the links posted over in the comment thread at SF as of this writing. 

What all can our readers here add to the discussion about the candidates and their beliefs?



By Phil on August 28, 2007 at 1:36 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

Wow, and pro-abortion, too.  ECUSA: including all God’s people - except for the babies.



By The_Elves on August 28, 2007 at 1:31 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

For Margaret Rose:
1.several links re: her involvement in the Melnyks pagan liturgy scandal

Christianity Today article that started the whole flap

Old TitusOneNine links (see especially the second which is explicitly focused on Margaret Rose’s view of the whole situation)
http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/index.php?p=3151
http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/index.php?p=3154

2. Her involvement in Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice pro-choice march:
http://episcopalwomenscaucus.net/ruach/Summer2004_vol25_1/02March.html



By Ed the Roman on August 28, 2007 at 1:28 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Glynn Cardy Reflects on the model of the church as a ship

Evil of me, but I shall point out that the most common ship metaphor for the Church is the “Barque of Peter.”



By Ross on August 28, 2007 at 1:28 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

The only one of the candidates I know personally—albeit slightly—is the Rev. Jeffrey Lee.  I interviewed with him for an internship a year or so back (I ended up elsewhere) and he was one of the candidates in our recent diocesan search here in the Diocese of Olympia.

From what I know of him, I like him and I think he’d be a pretty good bishop; but I dare say he’s too far out on the “reappraiser” side for most of you.



By The_Elves on August 28, 2007 at 1:27 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

Folks at Stand Firm are quite busy researching several of these candidates.  Here are some of the links they’ve pulled up.

For Tracey Lind:

Witness article by Lind+ “What Will We Have”

Lind’s Bio from Trinity Cathedral site

Interview with local Cleveland media

Church growth charts for Trinity Cathedral and her prior parish in Paterson, NJ:
http://12.0.101.92/reports/PR_ChartsDemo/exports/ParishRPT_8282007125501PM.pdf
http://12.0.101.92/reports/PR_ChartsDemo/exports/ParishRPT_828200710151PM.pdf

Her 2007 Annual Report on the State of the Cathedral

Will post links for other candidates separately



By Ed the Roman on August 28, 2007 at 1:23 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Integrity Responds to List of Candidates for Bishop of Chicago

News?



By William Tighe on August 28, 2007 at 1:23 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

“I don’t recognize any of the names.  Are there any Christians on the slate?”

Tracy Lind (Dean of Cleveland) is a partnered lesbian; Margaret Rose was, as I recall, the disseminator of weird and pagan-inspired rituals around 2004 from the ECUSA “women’s office;” and I have a vague recollection of having read “gay-friendly” theological eructations from the two male candidates.  Who has the lowdown on Jane Gould?



By Connecticutian on August 28, 2007 at 1:22 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Integrity Responds to List of Candidates for Bishop of Chicago

The big news today is that The Agenda has trumped discernment.



By William Tighe on August 28, 2007 at 1:16 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

If one were to scrutinize the (P)ECUSA bishops of Chicago over the years, examining their actions and opinions, one could construct a nice “morality tale” about “facilis descensus Averni” (the easy descent to Hell) by showing how “moderate” Anglo-Catholicism morphed into “Liberal Catholicism” into empty ritualism and then into complete modernism.  The first bishop, Philander Chase (1835-1852) was a moderately high-church Evangelical.  His successor, Henry Whitehouse (1852-1874) was a devotee of the Oxford Movement and Tractarianism, who so harassed Evangelicals in his diocese that a large number of them seceded to the Reformed Episcopal Church towards the end of his episcopate and that of his successor, William McLaren (1875-1905), who was more Anglo-Catholic still—as were Charles Anderson (1905-1930), Sheldon Griswold (1930), George Stewart (1930-1940) and Wallace Conkling (1941-1953).  Conkling’s successor, Gerald Burrill (1954-1971), who died only recently aged almost 100, was rather “liberalish” in his views, both as regards theology and matters such as divorce and remarriage.  A friend of mine, now a retired Catholic priest, but between 1954 and 1978 a Lutheran minister, went to see Bishop Burrill around 1955 about becoming an Episcopalian, but Burrill rapidly lost patience with my friend’s theological questions, replying to one of them with the words “we don’t think about the Creed, we just say it.”  James Montgomery (1971-1987) was a homosexual (as he himself admitted in retirement) who just couldn’t bring himself to ordain women, even though he didn’t oppose WO, but had one of his suffragan bishops “do it” and during his episcopate Chicago became a haven for antinomian (let the reader understand!) clergy of all sorts and all genders.  Frank Griswold (1987-1998), a modernist with a slightly “Catholic aroma” came next, and then William Persell (1998-present), a modernist also, but as far as I can see a colorless one without any “theological aroma.” It is a sad story, but so far as I can see either Tracy Lind or Margaret Rose seem to be the logical, and perhaps inevitable, next step on the downward staircase.  I hope that Cardinal George and his Orthodox counterparts will have discriminatingly “open arms” and be all things to all men that by all means they may save some.

POSTSCRIPT

There used to be a REC diocese seated in Chicago, a diocese that had a certain reputation for “high-church-ism” because it alone retained the use of surplices for its clergy and the “episcopal habit” for its bishop, when these had been given up everywhere else for the black “Geneva gown,” until it, too, was forced to give them up in the 1920s— but a glance at the entry for the REC in the 2000 *Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches* seems to indicate that that diocese no longer exists.  Perhaps it is due for a revival.



By Denise on August 28, 2007 at 1:12 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

Imagine that!  Elected on November 10 and consecrated on February 2.  Let’s see,  that is not even 90 days.  Hmmmmm…...



By AnglicanFirst on August 28, 2007 at 1:11 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Integrity Responds to List of Candidates for Bishop of Chicago

Is this an ‘opening shot’ just as firing on Fort Sumpter led to the hostilities of the American Civil War?

In this case, however, it seems that the Diocese of Chicago may be trying to ignite a civil war withing the Anglican Communion.

Couldn’t Chicago’s timing have been different?  After al, Sep 30 is only 33 days away and the start of the New Orleans meeting is only 23 days away.



By The_Elves on August 28, 2007 at 1:08 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

William, while this elf will be among the first to voice concerns over this slate of candidates (or at least 3 of them that I know something about), your comment above is not helpful. 

Please let’s focus here on sharing facts about the candidates and hard evidence about their beliefs and theology without getting into name-calling or really heavy sarcasm.



By the roman on August 28, 2007 at 1:05 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Integrity Responds to List of Candidates for Bishop of Chicago

Is it important to be a good teacher or is it important to be gay?



By William P. Sulik on August 28, 2007 at 12:59 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Chicago Standing Committee announces nominees for bishop

The headline on the linked webpage reads:

  Three women and two men are on slate

I don’t recognize any of the names.  Are there any Christians on the slate?



By Oldman on August 28, 2007 at 12:51 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Glynn Cardy Reflects on the model of the church as a ship

Re #4: Should read “God too changes.”



By Oldman on August 28, 2007 at 12:49 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Glynn Cardy Reflects on the model of the church as a ship

“God to changes.” Never!
My sig says “Oldman” which is true.  The good Vicar’s analogy is, for at least some, nice-sounding and perhaps comforting.  In my life I have lived in houses with a solid foundations and sailed on ships that seemed to be going in the right direction, but I soon found out differently.

As a boy, I started in a solid house, then while in college I set sail, but soon found that the winds that filled the sails were not always soft zephyrs.  More often than not they were produced by angry storms. 

The same with houses.  Having lived in an Islamic country where most houses were built on stones of a mistaken faith, I found an Anglican house that helped me and my faith survive.

God’s house does not set sail, but stands solidly because the Master Carpenter built it.  There is no way to improve it by erecting mast after mast and sailing waters using charts made by humans.

I pity those in our church who want to set sail and discover new truths, but the ones I pity the most are their children and their grandchildren who are taught to search for the Truth in every port on the world’s seas.

I pray to my Lord, that they will someday move into a house that is strong, because it was built by the Master Carpenter.  Every board, every nail has a purpose.

My word of advice to my children and grandchildren is not to live in a house that was made by man, but one built by the Master Carpenter.



By Chris Molter on August 28, 2007 at 12:33 pm [comment link]
From the entry: Debate over same-sex marriages simmers for Canadian Anglicans

#5,  not an issue for me, since I’m now Catholic (and my prior parish is in good hands both at the parish and diocesan level) but thanks for caring.


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