Not a bad starting speech.

Great that he started with prayer - in a press conference! - and even more so that he defined ‘the task’ as worshipping God and sharing the Good News. Excellent.

Plus he has the advantage over Rowan Williams that he can speak in non-convoluted sentences.

Well that didn’t take long:
New Archbishop Justin Welby pledges re-think on gay marriage
The price of his appointment?

Just exactly what are you saying Bishop Welby?

Read the speech please, Pageantmaster, and cage your cynicism. Newspapers never were ones for conveying nuance when a flashy headline is available.

One does not need cynicism to be wary of one so willing to compromise basic Christianity.

I was disappointed with his promise to “listen to the LGBT community” in the church.

If by that promise he meant: to seek to understand the experience of same sex attraction and support those struggling to maintain celibacy and faithfulness it would be one thing.

But that is not what he meant. He was referring to those who want the church to embrace soul killing unrepentant, defiant sin.

Can you imagine a minister of the gospel saying something like: We’re going to do our best to listen to the experience of those who want the church to embrace their practice of sleeping with our mistresses…

Such a thing is absurd. The only thing faithful shepherds can say to such a group is: we love you and want you to be in the church but for that to happen, you must commit to the long struggle of repentance.

So “listening” to the LGBT community is already a surrender.

Here’s his speech to the TEC HOB:
http://www.standfirminfaith.com/?/sf/page/29668

From that link you will also find links to his other writings which are great cause for concern.

KJS gushes over him in her comment on the appointment.  Enough said.

@Matt
Did you really just say ‘listening is a surrender’?
Really? To listen to someone is to lay down all your convictions?  I’m genuinely not sure what to say, but that’s alright, since you wouldn’t be listening, right?

@Phil
Compare KJS’s response with that of the head of the FCA. It’s not difficult at all to see which of the two is happier with the appointment.

I am grateful that Archbishop Wabukala was so quick to congragulate Bishop Welby, to offer encouragement, prayer and support in the role to which God has called him.  This is a good model of apostolic leadership. 

I loved this address.  It reflects what I know of the man: passionate in his love for Jesus Christ, humble in his assessment of his own gifts and capacities, conciliatory with those who disagree with his positions, but firm in his resolve to keep the Church faithful to Jesus Christ. 

For those who have reservations, which is understandable, I would urge you to learn more about him.  Don’t be so Derridan in your eisigesis of his comments but to read them in the light of his entire life and ministry.  There is great consistency and integrity here. 

God has been extremely good to this Church by sending us the Welbys. 

Tory

Hi MisterDavid

You asked: “Did you really just say ‘listening is a surrender’?”

No.

I said “listening” to the LGBT Community is already a surrender. Those “quotation” marks around the word listening generally communicate irony of some kind. Surprised you don’t understand that.

“Really? To listen to someone is to lay down all your convictions?”

No, I think I explained my meaning fairly well above…but since it seems you didn’t actually read what I wrote, I’ll write it again:

If by that promise he meant: to seek to understand the experience of same sex attraction and support those struggling to maintain celibacy and faithfulness it would be one thing.

But that is not what he meant. He was referring to those who want the church to embrace soul killing unrepentant, defiant sin.

Can you imagine a minister of the gospel saying something like: We’re going to do our best to listen to the experience of those who want the church to embrace their practice of sleeping with our mistresses…

Such a thing is absurd. The only thing faithful shepherds can say to such a group is: we love you and want you to be in the church but for that to happen, you must commit to the long struggle of repentance.

So “listening” to the LGBT community is already a surrender.

Nice to actually put words in context isn’t it? Makes things far more understandable.
 
“I’m genuinely not sure what to say, but that’s alright, since you wouldn’t be listening, right?”

Wrong. I would certainly listen. I just wouldn’t “listen”.

#4 MisterDavid

Read the speech please, Pageantmaster, and cage your cynicism. Newspapers never were ones for conveying nuance when a flashy headline is available.

Thanks - I read the speech several times, carefully.  That is what I do.
‘Nuance’ - well we have had enough of ‘nuance’ if it means speaking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.
If you read what he says, he does not endorse traditional marriage between a man and a woman.  He says he is going to revisit the question in the future and have a think and a pray about it and in the meantime support the current House of Bishops’ response to the Government.  Hardly a ringing endorsement of the House of Bishops response or of traditional marriage, is it?  Indeed a half hearted gesture towards it, but only until he can encourages some process to look at it again.  Clarity is needed, and absence of clarity, just will produce headlines like the Telegraph’s and justifiable concern in the Communion.

#8 Tory+

For those who have reservations, which is understandable, I would urge you to learn more about him.  Don’t be so Derridan in your eisigesis of his comments but to read them in the light of his entire life and ministry.  There is great consistency and integrity here.

I have been following Justin Welby for a while with interest, and initially some hope, but the questions remain.  He should on paper be a good choice - he has a heart for ministry and evangelisation, he has been good for Durham, he is an able administrator and sorted out the mess the Church Commissioners had made of the Auckland Castle Zurbarans and he is probably the one man who could lead the regeneration of the Church of England.  That Justin Welby is a man after my own heart.

Yet….There is the question of the line he took to James Jones’s swing in favour of gay ministry and marriage, a complete flip-flop and the rather biased ‘consultation’ he organised to take the Diocese of Liverpool with him.  Welby sounds increasingly like Jones.

Then there is the Quisling policy of Rowan Williams with regard to TEC and the TEC funded Indaba process which Welby has not only supported but participated in, as a pastoral visitor talking only to TEC and their appointees, and I believe also involved in facilitating the manipulative disgrace which was the Dublin Primates Meeting.

Then there is Welby’s speech to TEC bishops and his article in the General Convention magazine, encouraging them to think that they can behave as they wish and believe what they wish, so long as we all engage in mission and good works together, something which frankly we could say we were able to do with the priests of Ba’al if you think about it.

Then, how do I put this, there is the question of his involvement with you, Tory+ and your bringing Shannon Johnston to London to introduce the Bishop of Virginia to your ‘friends’ in the Church of England at HTB and elsewhere.  Not a friendly act to us.  The only effect of your actions appears to be to have given Johnston, who was previously quite cautious, the confidence to come home and approve gay marriages in the churches of the Diocese of Virginia.  I haven’t come to a final view on what you and Welby and others have been up to, but in a time when faithful Episcopal Bishops are being harried out of TEC, it is not exactly supportive of them or of us in the Church of England, is it?

God has been extremely good to this Church by sending us the Welbys.

I certainly pray so, but it remains very much to be seen, and early signs are not encouraging.  He could go either way in my view.

#8—is there any evidence the route taken by +Liverpool will not be the route +Welby will go?

I think that is what most conservatives will worry about, and it has very little to do with ‘derrida’ or ‘eisegesis’!

Obviously, +Kenya will be vitally concerned about just these kinds of things. It was encouraging to hear +Welby say that the CofE exists as part of a larger communion whose views must be considered if not respected.

I suppose what many want to know is if traditional Christian understandings of the goods of marriage will simply be aspects of trades and swaps so all can be ‘included’ as we march through time.

Along with Shannon, I also brought two RC leaders to HTB last May: Christopher West and Matt Maher.  I have been bringing all kinds of people to HTB for years…and all for the same reason: to expose them to a great apostolic movement.  This is not the forum to answer all your queries, but I would urge to talk to people who know me and know what I am trying to do to heal great wounds in NOVA and beyond.  Talk to Graham Tomlin, Ashley Null, Justyn Terry, Ephraim Radner, etc.  These people’s orthodoxy and orthopraxy is unyielding.  They may be in a better place to “explain me” than I. 

or call me at Truro and use your real name.  I am happy to speak to you my brother.

There is no obligation to call Pageantmaster unless you feel the need. Nor is there an obligation to talk to people who know Tory+ personally since it doesn’t appear that you question his personal faith or sincerity. When a leader takes public actions and releases public statements describing and promoting those actions, you do not need to call him personally before you explain publicly why you find his actions incompatible with NT norms. This is not a Matthew 18 moment.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/editorial_on_abusing_matthew_18

Fr. Baucum’s actions and his reasons for them have been self-published publicly and widely. My guess is that you have already read them. It is perfectly acceptable to disagree with them or question them publicly without giving him a personal call or checking his references.

We have been through the mill with Williams and we have done Lucy with the football.  I don’t intend to repeat the experience.  Meet the new ABC same as the last.

Rev. Baucum - I am confused - are you saying your actions must be correct because of the people you know?  Why wouldn’t we judge the actions rather than the man?
If +Shannon Johnson is a brother in Christ who deserves access to your flock, then Truro should truly rejoice because the only reason to stay separate is because you actually represent two different gospels.  Of course, unless it is being kept in a secret vault somewhere I have not seen where DioVA or +Johnson has repented.
The question is - who does the continued association say more about?  Truro or DioVA?

This thread is about the new Archbishop of Canterbury. Please return to that topic or the thread will be closed.

-Elf

#12 Many thanks Tory+ - I am sure we know a few people in common and I have been the Pageantmaster since I joined this site about 5 years ago and for better or worse, that is how I communicate here.  Perhaps we will talk or meet one day, and certainly if I were in Virginia for a visit I would probably come along to Truro or The Falls churches.  I have read what you have written, though not your book yet.

The issue is germane to Welby.  We have an Episcopal Church whose money is financing talk of ‘reconciliation’ and this is being taken up by Welby, Gumbel and yourself while TEC itself is waging vicious reconciliation on the remaining conservatives who remain by its brutal Presiding Bishop.    That is my concern about the apparent naivity of the comments and actions being undertaken, and if taken to be central to Bishop Justin’s ministry in the way he has indicated so far, will likely result in the continued chaos and consequent diminution in the office of Archbishop of Canterbury, and I say that as someone who is a Communion conservative and who believes the office of ABC should indeed be a focus of unity in Christ.  I am also aware that that office and Bishop Justin, HTB and indeed Truro are the subject of profound and extremely clever spiritual warfare, and am very concerned at the way things are going and the way in which well intentioned efforts, are merely playing to the script of the attack TEC is mounting in an attempt to subvert the Communion even as the consequences of its actions are collapsing it at home.

I pray that Bishop Welby does take the time to inform himself fully - there is quite a bit to learn, and if he does anything other than give a calm, solid and orthodox message, he will indeed bring further division and chaos to the Anglican Communion and indeed the Church of England.

He has an opportunity to bring growth, calm and good teaching and a biblical witness both to this country and the Communion, but to do so he must put aside the partizanship, TEC funding, and uncertainty of his predecessor and remember the things we were first taught.  He has an opportunity to return to leading as Archbishop the overwhelmingly Orthodox Communion, but that means learning from the mistakes of his predecessor, listening to the advice of the Primates of the majority Communion who want nothing better than a solid lead from Canterbury which has been so absent, that many doubt it will return, but I think it can and will, if he chooses to follow that path.  The path is not so hard to find - Jesus is it.

“I am grateful that Archbishop Wabukala was so quick to congragulate Bishop Welby, to offer encouragement, prayer and support in the role to which God has called him.  This is a good model of apostolic leadership.”

Of course.  And, at the same time he also laid down firm lines as to orthodox faith and practice which the new ABC must follow if he wants to retain the encouragement and support of the orthodox (no matter what he does, the ABC will never be out of our prayers).

“In a reference to his meteoric rise through the ranks of the Church – he has been a bishop for less than a year – he said: “I’m very conscious of my weaknesses, and great need, I will need advice and wisdom, especially from those who are senior among the Bishops.””

Which may be the reason he was chosen - an archbishop who has been a bishop for barely a year may be considered more malleable by the CofE hierarchy.  We shall see.

RE: “I have been following Justin Welby for a while with interest . . . “

Why indeed you have, Pageantmaster!

I can’t thank you enough for the devastating information you stated above, especially in your comment #10. Various people who have determined that same sex marriage and its accompanying theologies are merely secondary and not intrinsically communion-dividing and that its proponents share the same Gospel are obviously not going to want that kind of information out there, but it is vital that others—those who recognize that until the heresies are repented there will be no fellowship between the two groups within the Anglican Communion—recognize the appalling game that is being engaged, and be able to name its players.

When KJS gushes over anyone, that means she’s sure she’s got him or her in her back pocket!  Therefore, if +Welby goes ahead and votes for the creation of women bishops, it’ll be a sign that it’s a done deal.

Archbishop Welby might do better to “listen” to bishops like +Lawrence, +Love, +Stanton, +Martins, etc. and see what stories they have to tell.

17 re: “the path is not hard to find - Jesus is it”

Thank you for that and for the rest of your Christ honoring response.  I’m sure our paths will cross someday.  Blessings on your day.